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Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

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Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#281

Post by kabuks »

hello_newman wrote: post #246
kabuks wrote: post #96

Here's the thread that started it all: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3267133

Thank you for this. I remember reading this 5+ years ago. It was the catalyst for me dropping out of college, and eventually made my way up to SF to go to DBC. A hell of a journey, and it all started with a post on some forum. Edit: I also didn't realize you're the DBC founder? I owe you so much and i owe my entire career (thus far) to DBC and the entire industry you started with some crazy idea of teaching people to…

You are very welcome. Thank you for the kind words.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#282

Post by toomanyrichies »

kabuks wrote: post #96

Here's the thread that started it all: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3267133

Shereef, as a DBC grad (Otters, Chicago, 2013), I thank you for posting this. It changed my life, and the lives of many other students.

To think, this is the post that launched an industry!

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#283

Post by morgtheborg »

shados wrote: post #258
austenallred wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, they didn't teach you data structures and algorithms? They seriously stop at "hey deploy a CRUD app?" That's rough. There's no way students are getting jobs with that in this environment. Maybe when they first started that was enough, but now the market is flooded with not-quite-competent junior devs.

They can and they do. Which is somewhat problematics. A lot of companies are trying to scale, and with the demand for software developers being so high (plus the push for diversity), bootcamp "grads" are a pretty popular target. But companies rarely make the difference between a CS major (especially those with multiple internships or coops often spawning longer than the bootcamp on their own) and bootcamp graduates.…

Huh. I went through devbootcamp 3 years ago and stay in touch with a fair amount of people who did bootcamps. Haven't really heard this one before. The anecdotes I've heard are actually the opposite direction; that the bootcamp grads hit the ground running because they know the framework and general toolset for web dev (plus are usually spending a huge amount of time outside of work leveling up) and the CS majors take longer to be productive.

Of course, as their careers go beyond "junior", the bootcamps grads need to do major lifting to catch up in other areas beyond basic web dev. But early on, I've only really heard good things.

Curious.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#284

Post by busterarm »

brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #276
austenallred wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many software engineering jobs in San Francisco pay 50,000? The $50,000 lower limit is there for people looking for work in more rural communities. For example, yesterday we had a student that was formerly a forklift driver making $10/hr get a job offer in the middle of nowhere for $78k (and that was only two days after graduation). He lives in an area where he pays $500/month for rent. If he only went from makin…

Well, I can't speak to SF. I can tell you that in NYC, these salaries are going down down down as the supply of "junior Rails semi-devs" (hilarious btw) climbs ever higher with the rise of the last viable profitable education gambit: the bootcamp. I've actually started to see full time SWE positions on AngelList for $40,000 per year. (I know!!!!!) I realize you guys aren't a bootcamp, and I'm not speaking to anyone i…

As someone who has spent most of their life in NYC, I can tell you that this is a load of crap. There have always been shitty developer jobs in this city, before and since bootcamps, with equally shit pay. There's a ton of companies here with a lot of needs and not a lot of budget.

1) New York laws have changed very recently to make it much, much harder to screw over freelancers and contractors -- the places where you'd otherwise see these companies sourcing labor.

2) Even competent developers take jobs for low pay. I see it happen all the time. I've even done it.

3) You could just be seeing signal that AngelList has a lot of mindshare now and poorly funded NY startups are listing there. I've seen people I know with vanity businesses hiring part time devs on that site for $29k.

4) Salary caps are still climbing here.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#285

Post by morgtheborg »

josephorjoe wrote: post #163

So, three years ago, I was attending DBC and getting my first exposure to web app development. Today, I write code for a living and am enjoying the work I do much more than what I had been doing before. Did DBC give me an education equivalent to a computer science degree? No. Did they teach me everything I need to know about data structures and algorithms? No. Did they help me get my first programming job? Sort of, b…

I think most people hear "Learn to be a computer programmer in 6 months!" and think "get a job coding" which was pretty accurate in my experience (and those of my friends who attended a bootcamp).

Now, of course, being a "computer programmer" is way more complicated than that.

But I don't know a single person IRL who regretted doing a bootcamp (only know people who went to App Academy and DBC); they all still consider it a) a good investment and b) the reason they have their current jobs.

I don't really think DBC promised more than that. In fact, in my cohort they were all about "will code for food"; the idea being this was the first step and the next one was to find a place to continue learning.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#286

Post by bovitclan »

bovitclan wrote: post #275
morgante wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an extremely patronizing way of approaching this debate. I'm well aware of the different kinds of privilege which money affords students. I grew up lower middle class but went to boarding school and university with some incredibly privileged people. Money helps, but it's still not the dominant factor. If it were, I never would have gotten the education I received. Insinuating that those who went to elite unive…

You're free to ignore me, but I'll engage just once more. I read your comments and perceived that you were misunderstanding, and that I could present it in a way that would clarify things. I'm sorry that you felt patronized, but there is no shame in ignorance. I think you should be more open to people telling you that they have something to teach you; maybe I was wrong, and maybe this isn't the case for everyone, but…

This was bothering me, so I consulted with a friend, and tl;dr, I didn't pay your arguments the attention they deserved (as you are aware), and I shouldn't have mentioned a "teachable moment" because, while the phrase didn't have this connotation for me, I could have easily foreseen that you would've interpreted that as me putting you a rung below where I am.

I stand by views and the substance of what I've said, but I can see that the way I interacted with you was counterproductive to the conversation. I apologize.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#287

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

arikr wrote: post #223
brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently, I had the opportunity to do some number crunching on actual outcomes data for one of the tier 1 bootcamps. (all its years of operation to date) I discovered that some major changes needed to be made in their business model in order for them to be truly profitable. Their big innovative business idea seemed to be: we are gonna be the best at bootcamping. I don't get how that even passes as an innovative busin…

Oh dear.

Yes. Well said. I truly wish there was a way for the minds who convene here to get at a disturbing issue with respect to bootcamps: No one with access to actual data can be honest about what is going on here. they can't really share this data in any detail that would be valuable to a potential student, and really to the industry as a whole. These "transparency" reports that have cropped up recently are not so transparent-- (although they are better than nothing) they too deceive (why not show an actual budget with actual living expenses after graduation- including debt to the coding school- a detailed personal budget, if you will?- and actually show what it costs to live and study for several months in addition to this- show them how much they will actually have to lay out for a NYC security deposit (three months' rent if local, 6 months often if foreign these days- sure, not everywhere, but anywhere they will feel is a decent, legal place to live) this is just one aspect of how they are not "full-disclosure" with newbies. Also- the pre-work thing: take responsibility for teaching these people, please! They are paying you! Stop acting like their paying you lots of money is a privilege of theirs. Stop acting like they just got into Yale Law School when they got into your bootcamp. Get real with them. That gives you credibility right there. The honesty problem: Students can't be honest about what happens to them, because if they are, they (in their own minds) will devalue the bootcamp pedigree they paid good money for. (I have been talking to bootcamp graduates since this whole thing started and doing research. No, for some of the reasons I state, I can't produce this evidence, at least not right now) Then there is the whole having to pretend to be a member of the upper classes in NYC in order to get a job. This is a real thing in NYC, so tell them about it, and teach them how to act like rich people when you send them out. Teach them to act entitled- even arrogant. People who found and work for these bootcamps can't be honest (even if they believe they want to be) for obvious reasons. I mean, this is why we value double-blind testing in medical research. I just don't see another way than the companies themselves taking the responsibility to educate employees. I don't think they have to become Stanford. I do think Google has already started with this effort in bringing Howard University onto their Mountain View campus... I'm paying attention. The burden on the employee just becomes greater and greater until people are funding whole mini-careers in order to clear the first barrier to entry. It is ridiculous. We should not stand for it. But labor is dead. The bootcamp thing was a fantastic model five years ago, and Dev Bootcamp was truly a pioneer. That should be recognized for sure, and applauded. But what is being ignored is that this barrier to entry is now the highest it has ever been as a direct result of these bootcamps. I can believe that and also think Dev Bootcamp and others have done wonderful work for people. It is just that the big heavy castle door is closing fast and a few are scrambling to run under before the spikes hit their backs. Most will be left drowning in the castle moat. The answer is clear here: the model needs to change dramatically and it needs to always be changing dramatically. Agile anyone? (sorry- had to, I really had to) So maybe take stock and make real change that responds to the market in a sustainable way. Sustainable would be wonderful.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#288

Post by austenallred »

drewmol wrote: post #279
austenallred wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha. Yeah I'm the founder of https://lambdaschool.com/computer-science - a computer science academy that's free up-front and takes a percentage of salary for two years after you get a job. The side benefit of this model instead of a loan is that if, by chance, you don't get a job in software engineering, you never pay anything . It shifts the risk from the students to the school, which is IMO how it should be. Also…

>It shifts the risk from the students to the school, which is IMO how it should be. I love this idea, thank you for starting this! I think this something there should be more of. I just looked at your site, and noticed the 3% acceptance rate for the $0 upfront cost tier. Just curious how that's changed over time as your exposure has increased. I assume you are trying to maintain some instructor/student ratio, etc? Ar…

We've grown almost in line with the increase in applications in number of instructors. We haven't raised real money or anything, so we're limited by the number of instructors and cash we can pay them, but we're growing as quickly as we can without sacrificing quality.

We see hundreds of new applications per day and can only service a small fraction of them. Hopefully we can change that to some degree soon.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#289

Post by morgante »

bovitclan wrote: post #275
morgante wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an extremely patronizing way of approaching this debate. I'm well aware of the different kinds of privilege which money affords students. I grew up lower middle class but went to boarding school and university with some incredibly privileged people. Money helps, but it's still not the dominant factor. If it were, I never would have gotten the education I received. Insinuating that those who went to elite unive…

You're free to ignore me, but I'll engage just once more. I read your comments and perceived that you were misunderstanding, and that I could present it in a way that would clarify things. I'm sorry that you felt patronized, but there is no shame in ignorance. I think you should be more open to people telling you that they have something to teach you; maybe I was wrong, and maybe this isn't the case for everyone, but…

You're missing the point. It's not about whether I'm "ignorant" about your points or am ashamed of said ignorance, it's that you should never assume you know more than someone else—especially if you barely know them.

In my experience, there is never a benefit to assuming ignorance. Your original comment would have been much better without mentioning a "teachable moment." If you avoid assuming ignorance, then there are two outcomes:

1. The other person can actually not know what you're talking about and ask clarifying questions.

2. They do know what you're talking about, and can confirm your statements and extend it.

If you assume ignorance, you automatically put anyone who already knows what you're saying on edge. (This is also part of why "mansplaining" is such a grating phenomenon.) It's a conversational strategy with no upside and many downsides.

====

Having made that point, I'll say that I agree with everything you've said of there being lots of advantages that wealthy students have for getting into elite universities. That doesn't mean companies are necessarily wrong to concentrate on elite universities. Even though I think there are much better signals out there, if I had to choose a random Ivy league student vs. a random state college students I'd still choose the former.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#290

Post by magic_beans »

sarchertech wrote: post #234
magic_beans wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every loan is a federal loan. Additionally, federal loans almost NEVER cover the full amount of university, unless you're at a state school or community college. My federal loans covered about 1/8 of my tuition.

Federal loans make up 90% of all loan disbursements. The vast majority of college students only have Federal student loans. >unless you're at a state school or community college Private colleges enroll about 15-20% of students. If you don't want $100k in debt, go to a public school, or go to a top tier school like Harvard that has very generous financial aid. If you can't get into a top tier school with excellent fin…

I'm from CA. Even with the resident discount, UCs are just as pricy as private colleges.
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