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Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

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Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#281
post #25

This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other. It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. It simply takes being treated like a robotic…

Years ago I worked for a hospital. I noticed that many nurses smoked while physicians (mostly) did not. They read the same studies on the effects of smoking and treated the same emphysema and lung cancer patients. Yet, the difference in behavior was there. A friend of mine was a psychologist who worked on smoking cessation so I related the phenomenon to her. Apparently, it's well-known that people in jobs with high responsibility and low decision-making authority tend toward smoking and other stress relievers. That description certainly fits nurses.

Software developers tend to be in that position now. Organizations increasingly rely on software as the embodiment of their processes and gatekeeper of their information. Yet, we seem to be a leaf-node on the decision-making tree.

The job I had prior to the hospital was a startup company in the Boston area, circa 1995. I was picked for a team of 8 or so to implement a system that was, in essence, an PaaS forerunner. (They put the senior-most people on the project, which was sad because I had only two years of professional experience as a developer. But, that's another matter.) For about 8 weeks, we worked between 60-80 hours trying to jam it in. During that time, one team member went to the hospital with chest pains while another had an outright heart attack. But, the company did reward us with a $100 American Express gift card for each team member.

At some point, I keep hoping that organizations will start recognizing that we need to be used strategically: a voice in decisions on how to use technology. Frankly, organizations aren't getting full value for us until they do.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your OP was specifically about being handcuffed to a job because of equity considerations. How it isn't so easy to quit, you see, because equity. In the case of this 'one friend', she was not handcuffed to a job because of equity considerations. Therefore, no problem for her to quit. Kind of works against your original point, not for it.

I'm not really sure how you know my friend, or even which friend I'm speaking about, so I don't know how you'd know her situation. She's handcuffed because she's put in years of effort and hoping for a liquidity event before she leaves, lest she leave with little or nothing. She's miserable for entirely different reasons -- due to treatment she receives at work from what she tells me. Not sure why this would be surpr…

You can prevent employees from constantly leaving by simply paying them enough, see what any sector without equity comp does.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#283
post #25

This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other. It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. It simply takes being treated like a robotic…

I keep reading stories like these on HN, yet I don't know a single person who has experienced anything even remotely close to this. I don't live in the Bay Area. Are SV startups, in general, really this badly managed? If I add up all anecdata from reading HN comments about toxic work environments, I get the impression that 50% of the Valley is run like this. I have a hard time comprehending how this can happen.

Do you have kids? Imagine putting a toddler in charge of millions and millions of dollars. Now your house and paycheck and all of your life is dependent on the demands of the toddler, and shall you try and instill any reason, she throws a tantrum and threatens to replace you with anyone else who just says "yes." That's a simple, and yet so close-to-real way to look at the reason why bad apples exist.

That said, your 50% view is probably skewed. We like to read "sensational" stories, but for every bad company out there, thousands smart and caring founders build great companies every day.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. I've worked at 3 start-ups and at all of them I've worked long, grueling hours with the most recent one I was doing at least 65 hours a week (typically longer especially with a 3+ hour commute). I became severely burned out to the point where I didn't want to look for work or do much of anything. I was depressed and had severe anxiety. I went to the hospital with an anxiety attack so strong that I literall…

I wish it was that simple for me...by all rights I work at a place with good work-life balance (not a startup) and good management that doesn't drive stress into devs, but I feel innately against everything in this industry at this point. 99.99% of everything anyone does, including myself, seems utterly pointless. I've had anxiety attacks so bad because of this that I haven't been able to get out of bed in the mornin…

I can't help you with the job situation problem, but on the subject of anxiety attacks, you might find this post by a psychiatrist helpful: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffoca...

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#285
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become "toxic". Well, I never said it was easy. To elaborate more, it is incredibly important to have contingency plans in…

I also have a years' worth of living expenses saved, and it also took me about 3 years to build. It has zero impact on my stress level at work. I don't think I feel any more free to leave than if I only had a months worth saved. The idea of leaving and potentially burning through most or all of that portion of my family's savings while I look for another job is no more appealing or satisfying than just staying in the…

> The thing about work stress that builds up is that your mental health declines and you can begin to think very irrationally. Paranoia and depression can set in. I've seen devastating examples of this with people I know. I think it's important not to minimize it or brush it off and to understand that what seems obvious to you or I may not be obvious at all to someone who is feeling burnt out, desperate and depressed from their work situation.

I'm most certainly not "brushing it off" or "minimizing it". I'm advocating for proactive measures to avoid reaching a such a mental state that can drive a person to consider suicide as a reasonable option. In your case, it seems like the measure I suggested (having monetary guarantee for at least a year) is not sufficient, so I would advise you to look for other measures, which you can likely take now when things are good.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at a startup and leave after eight hours. They're not all bad.

Yup, even with my story the very first start-up I worked at wasn't that bad with the hours. We had the occasional crunch time, sure, but I rarely worked more than 8 hours a day. It really depends on management style, the stage of the start-up, and how technical management is (the less technical the more customer promises and more hours for employees to work, in my experience, because they don't entirely understand wh…

I work at startup called Mixpanel usually 8 hours a day and sometimes even less if I get mostly what I need to get done.

I've worked at big cos like Microsoft and other smaller companies too. Some startups legit give a shit about employees.

We are also hiring if anyone is interested.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#287
post #25

This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other. It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. It simply takes being treated like a robotic…

the last job I quit was at a small company that went from having an autonomous, highly agile engineering team (of which I was an early member) to having 3 tiers of management overseeing an engineering team that had less people in it than the management hierarchy above it.

the emotional corrosion that this causes can't be understated. bad management, even without explicit abuse, is a serious driver of burnout.

burnout is a SERIOUS fucking condition and it should be acknowledged as a tier 1 health risk. people kill themselves because of it.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#288
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, just quitting and crossing your fingers hoping you'll maybe get a new job at some point in the next 1-100 months is not an option for anyone with actual responsibilities.

So that is what you'd say... to this guy the day before he did what he did? uh... What responsibility is he addressing now? What money is he bringing in now? Exactly. Nothing.

Yea, I'm sure losing your home, wife, and family, or getting served papers by your ex and declaring bankruptcy, would work wonders for your mental health. Events like that never drive somebody to suicide. Nope.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#289
post #221

All, Hear me out. The first thing you need to overcome is not your wallet, or your options, timing or any other thing. It is -- your mind. If you experience this level of pressure, quit. And then start looking. Do not be influenced that your boss is the boss of your life or your career for that matter. If you've got a family to take care of, quickly join a consulting firm. Worst case you'll have to travel some, but i…

Tell that to somebody who has a family, or is paying child support/alimony. I'm sure their ex will sympathize that it's not about your wallet, but your mind.

consider that for some people the alternative to quitting is mental health breakdown that often results in conditions that will MOST DEFINITELY cause your ex to miss her alimony payment, well, I'm not seeing what your point is.

if it's really a matter of life and death, and it is, then doing what you need to do in order to step off the ledge is the only thing that matters.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you feel so shitty about work that you're getting suicidal im sure a doctor/psychologist will write you a doctors note for those 2 months

That note probably won't do much for your mental health if you _know_ what's on the other side of your break. I think the OPs advice is pretty sound, give yourself some options.

Give notice, then take two months off under FMLA.
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