How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#281

Post by fnj » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:59 AM UTC

bluejekyll wrote: post #178

sokoloff wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're still stuck on W-2 employees (which is a pretty large and common case, I admit, and I'd love to see that simplified). You will always need accounting for businesses (IMO). Suppose you ran a lemonade stand. You bought some equipment, some raw materials, you used some utilities, you used some space, you bought a banner and some flyers to advertise your stand, you hired a lawyer to help set it up, you bou…

Sure. Let's focus on the individual return first. In terms of businesses, I hold somewhat controversial belief that businesses should not be taxed. Their employees are taxed, and people recieving dividends are taxed. By not taxing businesses, we'd also balance out the unfairness in the system today, where large companies are able to offset all profits with deductions, and small companies which actually pay quite a bi…

The entirety of economic entities is not conveniently split between "employees" and "businesses paying employees". Even aside from disabled, burnouts, unemployable, trust funders, criminals, barterers, and simple parasites, there exist sole proprietors, partners, and individual contractors, whose income never gets distributed to any employees.

Your hypothetical "fair system" will have to have policies and regulations in place to deal with all of these situations.

As far as I can see, the only opportunity for real fundamental simplification is to completely drop all taxes on income, and substitute consumption-based taxes. And even that is not as simple as it sounds (how does it deal with barter, for example?).

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#282

Post by rtpg » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:03 AM UTC

spectrum1234 wrote: post #274

ptc wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh boy, I really want to hear how you think the "Free Market" solves this problem. Remember kids: If it's broken, apply Free Market liberally to the affected areas.

Uh..get rid of the government involved in all these tax laws. Obviously? Are you suggesting complicated taxes isn't the government's fault?

I think the implication is that countries that espouse their "free market"-ness end up with a lot of regulatory capture. This, telecoms, healthcare.

A bunch of people with a lot of money have been able to lock in their positions. It sure feels like pulling out of the church of laissez-faire economics would let us, say, pass laws with things like price controls (or just nationalizing the whole industry!).

An aside: complicated taxes aren't the opposite of "free market". For example, giving tax incentives to new companies can help make a market more free by reducing the cost of entry.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#283

Post by laughfactory » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:05 AM UTC

chasing wrote: post #234

krisroadruck wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You... love paying taxes?

Yes. I love paying taxes. Not because I like having less money in my bank account, but because I understand what paying taxes represents.

Government waste and inefficiency? Crony capitalism?

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#284

Post by laughfactory » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:09 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #231

imjustsaying wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an immigrant. I consider it robbery to be intimidated by force into paying taxes.

You also consider it a right to drive on roads?

Roads are the go-to argument for the value of taxes. But it's a dumb point to make because there are a ton of programs which we fund but do not benefit from. In fact, the vast majority of every dollar we pay in taxes does absolutely nothing to benefit us directly. No one argues against true infrastructure investments, it's all the other b.s. that we hate (immigrants and non-immigrants alike).

Being a dick to someone for seeing what's wrong with the taxes here is awfully small of you.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#285

Post by ruleabidinguser » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:09 AM UTC

SpaceRaccoon wrote: post #279

chasing wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I love paying taxes. Not because I like having less money in my bank account, but because I understand what paying taxes represents.

Yes, funding a $600 billion military industrial complex [0]. Just think, your complete yearly taxes were probably almost enough for a single JDAM [1] which was then dropped on Iraq, in a war where 13% of all civilians were killed directly by US-led forces [2], and many more in the chaos that ensued from the invasion. But you love it. [0] - https://www.nationalpriorities.org/campaigns/military-spendi... [1] - https://…

Why precisely is having the worlds largest military bad? Do you think it doesnt add any value? It seems theres a lot of people outside of America who'd like to see it shrunk for very bad reasons.

Why not keep the military and solve our problems without it? We need it to be safe now, and until we've already solved our problems, we'll still need it.

Obviously it doesn't always work well and it definitely causes problems, doesn't mean we should get rid of or even reduce it.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#286

Post by ruleabidinguser » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:14 AM UTC

tuna-piano wrote: post #270

I haven't read a legitimate argument against the IRS calculating taxes automatically, but here it is. The more invisible taxes are to the individual person, the less they think about that money (and the higher taxes can go without them complaining too much). Rent feels expensive because every month you write a check for rent. However, for many people, taxes are a much bigger expense than rent. But taxes don't feel as…

Im sure people who are making their decisions about what they value the way you describe are not really so concerned without how much its actually costing them.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#287

Post by joering2 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:15 AM UTC

SpaceRaccoon wrote: post #279

chasing wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I love paying taxes. Not because I like having less money in my bank account, but because I understand what paying taxes represents.

Yes, funding a $600 billion military industrial complex [0]. Just think, your complete yearly taxes were probably almost enough for a single JDAM [1] which was then dropped on Iraq, in a war where 13% of all civilians were killed directly by US-led forces [2], and many more in the chaos that ensued from the invasion. But you love it. [0] - https://www.nationalpriorities.org/campaigns/military-spendi... [1] - https://…

Couldnt upvote you more.

Its called "chain of numbness". Chasing doesn't murder innocent Iraq children; he is far from it but by aiding financially the army that does murder, are his hands truly clean?

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#288

Post by kobeya » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:18 AM UTC

ruleabidinguser wrote: post #285

SpaceRaccoon wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, funding a $600 billion military industrial complex [0]. Just think, your complete yearly taxes were probably almost enough for a single JDAM [1] which was then dropped on Iraq, in a war where 13% of all civilians were killed directly by US-led forces [2], and many more in the chaos that ensued from the invasion. But you love it. [0] - https://www.nationalpriorities.org/campaigns/military-spendi... [1] - https://…

Why precisely is having the worlds largest military bad? Do you think it doesnt add any value? It seems theres a lot of people outside of America who'd like to see it shrunk for very bad reasons. Why not keep the military and solve our problems without it? We need it to be safe now, and until we've already solved our problems, we'll still need it. Obviously it doesn't always work well and it definitely causes problem…

Having the largest military in reserve? No problem with that, personally.

Having them used as they are now and deployments in the recent past, not so much.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#289

Post by smsm42 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:19 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #99

67726e wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? They can help all the typical cases. If you need additional help, then you can find an accountant to help.

My point is that "The IRS already knows what taxes you owe." is patently false in the vast majority of cases. In 2012 (the last year for which I have a breakdown: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/12rswinbulreturnfilings.pdf ), of the 239 million returns filed, about 143 million are individual returns. Of the 143 million individual returns, about 13% or 18.6 million use 1040EZ ( http://www.freeby50.com/2012/12/what-per…

Great analysis. One thing to add though - some of these people have to also file state returns. Which in TurboTax pretty much automatic, but without it it'd be separate return which has to be filed separately - which means same work as for Federal, so people would still need something like TurboTax - unless also each state that has income tax makes their own system too.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#290

Post by rtpg » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:21 AM UTC

euyyn wrote: post #166

foota wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States has a complicated tax code because it attempts to make things more "fair" for some people. Some of these are things people like, such as deductions for people with children, paying mortage, etc. Some are more dubious.

> The United States has a complicated tax code because it attempts to make things more "fair" for some people. As opposed to the other countries with automated taxes, that don't attempt it?

One difficulty is that it's easier to pass a tax break through a budget process than to pass an equivalent "handout" through a separate one.

For example, in France if you have more than 3(?) kids, you get 70% off all train rides. That required this whole process to get set up (I imagine it was more through regulation than law but you at least need the budget to the SNCF).

The easiest way to get an equivalent thing through the US legal bureaucracy would be to do: "If you send us receipts of your train tickets and have over 3 kids, we'll deduct them from your taxes at 70%".

It "pays for itself" in the sense that the government doesn't have to give money to Amtrack, just give back money that was just given to it by the taxpayer. It doesn't require intergovernmental coordination, just the IRS. It can be passed through the huge budget process. Much easier than many other regulatory schemes.