How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#161

Post by meric » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 12:56 AM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #106

hackuser wrote: post #94

A tangential issue: It seems almost impossible to me that the systems of tax preparation services, whether cloud-based, local software, or offline, are secure. The standard of security is, make the target more expensive to breach than it's worth to the attacker. How much would it be worth to have access to the tax returns of large swaths of the population? I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing it's easily worth b…

The answer, of course, is "it's not that secure". Now, Turbo Tax and H&R Block aren't being hacked, but breaking into their systems isn't the easy way. And like you said, attackers want to take the easy way. The easy way is to get just enough info from your targets as it takes to extract money from them. And in the past few years, e-filing fraud has skyrocketed. The mantra is "file your taxes before someone else does…

I hope someone file my taxes first because my tax return always ends up as owing government tens of thousands of dollars...

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#162

Post by xupybd » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 1:02 AM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #160

xupybd wrote: post #97

I live in New Zealand. I don't have to file taxes if my income is a standard wage my tax payments are automatic. My employer deducts them from my wage and they are sent to the IRD (Our government tax dept). My student loan and super payments are also automatic. If there is anything wrong then at the end of the tax year I can file to correct things. I also get donations rebates, this is a one page form that lists all…

It's almost that simple in the US if your situation is that simple. What happens in NZ if you make $400 selling vintage cabbage patch dolls on eBay? What if you earned $1k in returns on your investment account? What if you are renting your place out on Airbnb? If all you have is a simple income in the US, then the 1040ez is a single page and you can file it for free online if you make under a certain amount. You can…

Yes you have to file an IR3 if you make other income.

http://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax-individual/end-year/ir3/ii...

My favourite part of our tax system is the advice to file if you have "income from an illegal enterprise"

EDIT: Just as a reply to the original point. I'm not sure how complicated the US system is. I'm not trying to say it's bad either, it just seems to me that we have a system similar to the one that is getting lobbied against. And I like our system, it works well for me..

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#163

Post by the_cat_kittles » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 1:02 AM UTC

metaphor wrote: post #141

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are they?

Let's start with that fact that Then how about the fact that offerings are only applicable if you're filing 1040EZ. For example, if you so much as claim student loan interest or itemize deductions, that's automatically 1040A at a minimim and disqualifies you from the free offering. Then there's actually getting your tax return. If you don't provide an ACH bank account and routing number, you'll get charged to have yo…

what a hilarious combination of informative and dickish... i... dont know what to make of that. thank... you?

i asked because ive used the free offerings and there were absolutely no headaches. there is nothing wrong with asking someone else a question like the one i asked you, you insane person.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#164

Post by hackuser » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 1:04 AM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #106

hackuser wrote: post #94

A tangential issue: It seems almost impossible to me that the systems of tax preparation services, whether cloud-based, local software, or offline, are secure. The standard of security is, make the target more expensive to breach than it's worth to the attacker. How much would it be worth to have access to the tax returns of large swaths of the population? I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing it's easily worth b…

The answer, of course, is "it's not that secure". Now, Turbo Tax and H&R Block aren't being hacked, but breaking into their systems isn't the easy way. And like you said, attackers want to take the easy way. The easy way is to get just enough info from your targets as it takes to extract money from them. And in the past few years, e-filing fraud has skyrocketed. The mantra is "file your taxes before someone else does…

> Turbo Tax and H&R Block aren't being hacked

What is that based on?

> It's really, really hard to attack Intuit. It's much easier to submit fraudulent tax forms and pocket the returns before anyone notices

What makes you say that it's so hard? Also, the return on breaking into Intuit is millions of tax returns. Finally, attackers may not be after the refunds on a few returns, and more interested in a massive intelligence and identity theft haul.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#165

Post by mlinksva » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 1:04 AM UTC

Many tech companies are members of CCIA and should demand it stop advocating for Intuit's civilization-destroying agenda.

It's been one of their issues for a long time eg http://www.ccianet.org/2011/09/irs-tax-prep-not-a-budget-sol... and http://www.ccianet.org/2002/01/treasury-irs-announce-efforts... ... and it's a major activity of theirs http://sunlightfoundation.com/2013/04/15/tax-preparers-lobby...

> The Computer and Communications Industry Association (CCIA), of which Intuit is a member, represents its members on a wide range of technology issues, but spends a significant amount of its $6.7 million in lobbying on tax simplification. As ProPublica's piece points out, the group operates the website "Stop IRS Takeover" which bashes the idea of pre-filed returns. Disclosures indicate the CCIA has focused on "issues pertaining to tax preparation services" and legislation involving simple filing. It lobbied in support of Rep. Lofgren's bill that would have barred government-filed returns, and rallied against Sen. Akaka's bill that would have let taxpayers file directly through the IRS "without the use of an intermediary." The CCIA is an active political giver as well, doling out over $650,000 over the past 20 years with 91% going to Democrats. Silicon Valley-based Rep. Lofgren, an opponent of IRS-prepared returns, has been the biggest beneficiary of CCIA donation, collecting over $12,000. The group also opposed John Chiang in the 2006 California controller election, chipping in $50,000 to the Alliance for California's Tomorrow — the same group that received $1 million from Intuit.

CCIA also gets lots of mentions in https://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/Tax_Maze_Repor...

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#166

Post by euyyn » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 1:07 AM UTC

foota wrote: post #121

xupybd wrote: post #97

I live in New Zealand. I don't have to file taxes if my income is a standard wage my tax payments are automatic. My employer deducts them from my wage and they are sent to the IRD (Our government tax dept). My student loan and super payments are also automatic. If there is anything wrong then at the end of the tax year I can file to correct things. I also get donations rebates, this is a one page form that lists all…

The United States has a complicated tax code because it attempts to make things more "fair" for some people. Some of these are things people like, such as deductions for people with children, paying mortage, etc. Some are more dubious.

> The United States has a complicated tax code because it attempts to make things more "fair" for some people.

As opposed to the other countries with automated taxes, that don't attempt it?

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#167

Post by hackuser » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 1:08 AM UTC

problems wrote: post #155

hackuser wrote: post #94

A tangential issue: It seems almost impossible to me that the systems of tax preparation services, whether cloud-based, local software, or offline, are secure. The standard of security is, make the target more expensive to breach than it's worth to the attacker. How much would it be worth to have access to the tax returns of large swaths of the population? I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing it's easily worth b…

The local software doesn't really carry the same security concern. With cloud-based or in-person tax preparation, there's a risk that a single breach could compromise many, many tax returns. With offline software you have no such exposure, it's not like it's exposing open ports to the internet. At least in Canada there's a whole slew of free tax preparation software available, offline desktop and cloud-based. The gov…

> With offline software you have no such exposure

Generally I agree that it's a higher cost and therefore less valuable target, but there are ways to mass deploy some exploits. For example, you could use a browser exploit to obtain access, and then use that to mass deploy an exploit on tax return software.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#168

Post by curun1r » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 1:11 AM UTC

stult wrote: post #144

harryh wrote: post #123

Intuit certainly does this, but blaming them for our overly complex taxes is wrong. They might move the needle a little bit but they aren't the primary driver. The primary driver is all the constituencies of all the little things in our taxes that add up to make them complicated. Like ObamaCare? That came with two additional forms. Live in a high tax state and like deducting your state taxes? That makes things more c…

That's not the point of the article at all, nor of Intuit's lobbying. Even with the current complexity of the tax code, the IRS could easily auto file your taxes for you if your income is below a certain very high level and you do not have any special complications. Such a system would work for 98% of Americans. This has nothing to do with what deductions are available or whatever complexity they introduce into the s…

Intuit's lobbying isn't limited to opposing return-free filing. They also lobby to keep the tax code at a certain level of complexity that puts the most Americans in the sweet spot between too complex to feel comfortable using software and too simple to need software.

FWIW, the reason that Intuit believes that return-free filing is a bad idea is that they believe that you need someone who advocates for the biggest refund/smallest tax bill and the government isn't in a position to be that advocate since its revenues depend on tax collection. I don't generally agree and this sort of lobbying was the one area in which I questioned Intuit's "Integrity Without Compromise" core value during my time working there, albeit not on TurboTax. However, I did meet many people that did work on TurboTax and they all believed this strongly.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#169

Post by upofadown » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 1:12 AM UTC

pag wrote: post #101

I'm really happy with how the Canadian Revenue Agency handles things. You file online, there's plenty of free services to do your taxes. They support auto-fill where the CRA can send them the tax info it already knows about you (e.g. from banks and employers), etc. I filed my a few weeks ago and they assessed my returns by the next afternoon. Last week I received a cheque in the mail, but that's only because I forgot…

Technically the situation in Canada is the same as in the US. You must use a third party to file your taxes online. There is a donationware system from simpletax.ca and most (all?) of the others will not charge for a sufficiently low yearly income.

That doesn't change the fact that in Canada there is no way for a citizen to file their taxes directly with the government other than by using the paper forms and mailing them in. There used to be a telephone system but that was eliminated some years back.

The relationship between the private tax preparers and the CRA is much closer than is healthy. I suspect that is related to the current situation.

This bothers me enough that I file my taxes on paper as a form of protest. The nice thing is that you can put pretty much any nonsense on there you want. They will just ignore your figures if they disagree which of course shows how silly the current situation is.

Re: How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)

#170

Post by schainks » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 1:12 AM UTC

So, just for a different perspective, Taiwan has a relatively simple tax filing experience, and the government invests significant resources to make as simple as possible (which does result in many people paying their taxes properly, on time).

While their digital tools for filing taxes make the telegraph feel modern, the "in person" experience is full of helpful people and takes about 90 minutes including travel time.

My main criticisms of the filing process:

1. Tax bureau has a one month timeframe where you can go, in person, to file "on time", but only during business hours. Any 9-5 worker must take time off to go file in person. It's a pretty nice customer experience - The volunteers in the bureau help you file your taxes with highest deductions possible, it gets crosschecked by a government tax clerk, and you're done.

2. Make the software work better on a modern OS and give it modern usability. It's _really_ crap UI, and I only run it in a VM just in case because the download site is also shady looking.

3. Locals gaming the system can make your life harder as a working-from-home small business owner. Many landlords don't pay income taxes on their properties, which means tenants cannot register business addresses at their homes, and must "rent" an address for about $100 / month.

4. Withholdings on foreigners, by default, are artificially high as a "precaution".

5. Refunds process in August after filing in May. Because they still process every return much by hand.

6. Double taxation on people like US citizens. The tax clerk has asked friends of mine, while filing, to show their US tax return to make sure there are not more taxes owed. They can ask, but it's not enforceable. So why do it? Because the tax rate on that income earned elsewhere can be as high as 30-40%! The tax clerk gets to decide how bad of an offender you are. GLHF.

7. If your income goes down compared to the year before as a foreigner, you will probably pay a penalty for "making less money" because they suspect tax evasion. Pay the fine (less than $USD 100) and walk away, or they dig your records hard and you could wind up in a situation like #6 above.