How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#281

Post by ghurtado » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

lineindc wrote: post #273

ghurtado wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. "/s" -> those two characters are not a "get out of jail free card" that allows you to behave without respect and decorum. 2. On HN, flagging a comment like yours is a much more appropriate response than downvote. Maybe once you've had enough of our comments removed you'll start to understand the etiquette around here, but there's easier ways to fit in.

If the "created" field in your profile is of any significance, I've been here for much longer than you. Stop bossing around other people just to feel morally superior.

So you've already been banned once?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#282

Post by coryrc » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #186

jacquesm wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early America was full of Native Americans and they didn't need those immigrants at all. The people that needed the skilled laborers were immigrants themselves. By the way, the very best way to stop immigration is to make other countries wealthy.

You're being intentionally obtuse. Sure, the Native Americans would have gotten along fine with bows and horses. But we are discussing the economy. The growth the US economy throughout its history was driven heavily by immigration.

Horses are immigrants too.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#283

Post by Retric » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

johncolanduoni wrote: post #267

Retric wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there people in the US who know the language and are not willing to move to Alabama for 95k? Then the market has spoken. The entire point of capitalism is not everyone get's what they want and price how that is decided.

Okay, that's fine as long as they are available and willing to move for something like $100,000. Doesn't have to be super close; requiring $100,000 to hire a foreign citizen when the market wage is $75,000 seems pretty reasonable to me. But you don't appear to have data to back up that particular number for all jobs with no specialization whatsoever , and as far as I can tell the administration doesn't either.

Let's suppose you want someone to just watch a parking lot which takes zero skills and I advertise for minimum wage and don't find anyone. Then you show up and say I need an H-1B, yes it's the night shift, but as unskilled labor that's a minim wage job...

That's the point of around a six figure wage floor. It prevents people from understating the requirements then bringing in a H-1B. I could just Advertise for a secretarial job, then only accept people that happen to speak Farsi.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#284

Post by untog » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:45 PM UTC

waqf wrote: post #254

untog wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no universal H1B salary. Translators do not earn as much as developers, in general. People living in Alabama do not earn as much as those working in Silicon Valley, in general. H1B applications go through a "labor condition application" for this exact reason - the government approves the salary, based on industry and location. Therefore, you can't bring 3D developers to Silicon Valley and pay them $20k. But…

Ok, what is the aim of the H1B program? You appear to have raised that question, and then shied away from that phrasing in your answer.

Luckily for me, you, and the internet at large, Google lets you look up information on large government programs. Not sure what is "bizarre" about me "shying away" from duplicating publicly available information.

"The H-1B program applies to employers seeking to hire nonimmigrant aliens as workers in specialty occupations or as fashion models of distinguished merit and ability. A specialty occupation is one that requires the application of a body of highly specialized knowledge and the attainment of at least a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent. The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States."

https://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm

You will note that the word "salary" does not appear in that description.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#285

Post by mc32 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:45 PM UTC

nemtaro wrote: post #277

mc32 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition with looming automation, we simply cannot employ all the people who want to come here for a job, either skilled or unskilled. We have large swaths of underemployed Americans but it costs companies too much to recondition them, so they prefer new bodies over training the domestic workforce. This should be an opportunity for the likes of YC to double down on extending their know how to American women, Ameri…

The YCs and large companies can easily move their investments and offices to Canada and hire the world's best and brightest there. I'll give you the often conservative advice: Tough luck? pull yourself up by your own boot straps! Go to school. Go back to school. Work hard, and interview with Google/Amazon/Microsoft again. And stop perpetuating the idea that you are at a disadvantage because of immigrants and refugees…

In tech you don't have to be the first to market, you only have to have a market that's ready for you.

Xiaomi, tencent, alibaba. Not fist to market. All doing well. All done with a very predominant domestic labor force.

My point, is it's not do much the foreigner, or even the local, but the opportunities made available by your domestic economy.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#286

Post by gumby » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:47 PM UTC

waqf wrote: post #254

untog wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no universal H1B salary. Translators do not earn as much as developers, in general. People living in Alabama do not earn as much as those working in Silicon Valley, in general. H1B applications go through a "labor condition application" for this exact reason - the government approves the salary, based on industry and location. Therefore, you can't bring 3D developers to Silicon Valley and pay them $20k. But…

Ok, what is the aim of the H1B program? You appear to have raised that question, and then shied away from that phrasing in your answer.

> Ok, what is the aim of the H1B program?

It is to make it possible for foreigners to provide work to US organizations when no local person is available.

I have hired many many people on H1s. It was always a hire of last resort: when we could not find someone local. It always cost us a lot more than a local person: in both legal fees and procedural fees (you need to verify that the salary you are paying is not lower than the prevailing wage, which is totally fair) not to mention that it takes a while to get the person so while you're messing about you have nobody to fill the job. Some people are unusually distinguished (perhaps expert in a particular machine or language) but lack the appropriate degree, and they are even harder to bring in.

I have a hard time complaining about that (and I'm an immigrant myself). I think it's totally fair that the system should be biased towards locals. But the system does need an escape mechanism when nobody local can do the work.

There are problems. The big outsourcing companies (not just Indian ones but IBM) flood the lottery early. Also somehow they apparently/allegedly pay below market rate, which I don't understand. As usual it's the startups that get screwed.

Note this H-1 is to bring someone here. If I could outsource I would (to Alabama or Amadebad, it would be all the same to me). When we can get away with a distributed team we hire people where they already are.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#287

Post by devmunchies » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:48 PM UTC

nemtaro wrote: post #277

mc32 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition with looming automation, we simply cannot employ all the people who want to come here for a job, either skilled or unskilled. We have large swaths of underemployed Americans but it costs companies too much to recondition them, so they prefer new bodies over training the domestic workforce. This should be an opportunity for the likes of YC to double down on extending their know how to American women, Ameri…

The YCs and large companies can easily move their investments and offices to Canada and hire the world's best and brightest there. I'll give you the often conservative advice: Tough luck? pull yourself up by your own boot straps! Go to school. Go back to school. Work hard, and interview with Google/Amazon/Microsoft again. And stop perpetuating the idea that you are at a disadvantage because of immigrants and refugees…

> can easily move

They can move, but not easily. It'd be easier to just open satellite offices.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#288

Post by mavelikara » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:50 PM UTC

sharemywin wrote: post #268

mavelikara wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is what the current rule - the one based on prevailing wages - tries to address. Minor tweaks to it - for e.g. using the mean of the top 1/3rd of the salaries surveyed - will accomplish what you ask for, IMO.

wonder if that shouldn't be by city since salaries very so much by geography.

The current rules determine prevailing wage per geography.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#289

Post by throwaway729 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:52 PM UTC

yokisan wrote: post #247

throwaway729 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "rural communities don't need tech" narrative is tiring and false. "Tech" is more than Google. How many engineers do you think John Deere hires? How many scientists does Monsanto have on staff? How many lines of code go into the average modern factory? If I had a dime for every time I talk to a farmer/laborer who plants fields full of GM crops and/or harvests those fields with impressive machinery, and then insi…

> There's nothing stopping those people from getting an education and joining a big tech company. "There's nothing stopping somebody from the ghetto from getting an education and joining a big tech company". In both cases, sadly there is. And I think what the OP is suggesting ("for every immigrant a tech company imports, they must hire two rural American workers") is a step towards remedying this.

> In both cases, sadly there is

If you read further, I state the obvious: "The one exception is maybe lack of access to higher education. And the GOP is an odd choice if that's your primary problem..."

> And I think what the OP is suggesting ("for every immigrant a tech company imports, they must hire two rural American workers") is a step towards remedying this

Huh?

Google et al. already do this. If you're a competent programmer, you can find a tech job. Tech companies don't discriminate against rural hires...

Is your suggestion that Google should hire a bunch of completely untrained and totally unqualified rural folk as software engineers, purely because they're from a rural part of the country, and train them on sight?

Wouldn't improving K12 STEM education and making college more accessible make a lot more sense? Google isn't a school, and education isn't their core competency.

It's one thing to say "we should be more supportive of STEM education and make college more accessible".

It's completely another to insist that Google over-look college educated immigrants because some rural Americans weren't given the opportunity to attend an IIT.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#290

Post by Periodic » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:52 PM UTC

ihsw wrote: post #143

testUser69 wrote: post #88

Americas "tech dominance" threatens the breadbasket. The coastal areas, mostly certain cities, have become "international" and any worker from a rural area who wants to earn a living wage doing a technical job (e.g. STEM) now not only has to compete with other Americans, but everyone in the world. What exactly do the elites expect people in the breadbasket to do? If America is an international country then we're goin…

Wealth has gravitated around massive city centers since time immemorial and China is even more hostile to foreigners. If you think America is the only one artificially gating wealth within the border then you are in for a rude awakening. Coastal cities in America will continue to be a melting pot of culture but the wealth won't be siphoned off unabated. The rationale behind the policy is ending the indentured servitu…

I think there's a more important metric: productivity has concentrated in the coastal cities. Our workforce is more productive than ever before. Much of our economic gains year after year are due to productivity gains: we produce more goods per worker.

In our current economy, if you want to have a high-paying job you have to have a highly productive job. The best way to do that is to be in a city that has high network effects. Centralization and computerization is allowing people in cities to be more and more productive. This is why even Walmart has fewer regional managers and employs more people in cities managing logistics or even doing research in programs like @WalmartLabs.

Being in a city helps you be more productive due to network effects in contacts, opportunities, leads and education. If we want to help people out, we need to help them get those benefits elsewhere or help them move to the coastal cities that already have these networks.