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In Greece, Property Is Debt

nytimes.com

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Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#281

Post by charlesdm »

muse900 wrote: post #271
return0 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> own 3 flats and 1 house > Seriously Rich people in Greece pay no tax and they don't care as well. Maybe you should realize your parents are the rich people.

No and here is your mistake, sorry I have to call you an idiot because you triggered me. Someone that inherits property doesn't automatically mean that he/she is rich. They never rented out or sold any property, and they worked for private companies their whole lives. The money they had were pretty limited on what they could do. Also property in Greece is not like other countries of EU. Atm you can find flats in cent…

> Someone that inherits property doesn't automatically mean that he/she is rich.

That depends on the value though. They could be asset rich, and (very) cash poor. That's a tough spot to be in. Arguably, that could even be worse if you can't sell them. But you said the apts are currently worth around €300k each?

Is there no way to unlock cash from them, e.g. by renting them out at €1,000 a month or by taking out a €100,000 bank loan against them? Alternatively, how about AirBnb? I know a guy making good money with a small business renting out several AirBnb apts in a popular city. That way you would at least not have to sell them.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#282

Post by atmosx »

return0 wrote: post #256
atmosx wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that the values have been recently reassessed [...] MY experience is from a bid in 2012-13. But out of curiosity, how would you asses this[1] situation? It's a random article I just googled... http://www.zougla.gr/greece/article/kalite-na-plirosi-enfia-...

Thats really a fringe case of some long-forgotten property in a no-construction zone. The solution is to disown the property. It's not a comparison of real price assessment

You think so? I came across another 2 cases of people I know who did not accept inheritance (houses in villages by remote dead relatives) because of ENFIA. How do you call that? Another fringe case? :-)

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#283

Post by muyuu »

pyb wrote: post #186
CyberDildonics wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? I'm not a mathematician, but I think that would make it a 50k or 70k house.

Well put. If the house, 'valued' by the government at 300k, is actually a '90k' house that will in fact sell for 50k, perhaps it's time to get real, save time and call it a EUR 50k property from the start. Everything sells for the right price. As for the issue of finding a buyer, I am hearing rumours that many Greeks have built up sizeable assets, from not paying very much tax in the last few decades. Many areas in G…

Yeah, and then the government will still tax the owner for the full self-assessed amount. Even if the full sale doesn't pay for the tax, and then prosecute you for the unpaid tax.

This already happens in many places with property inheritance tax in the EU. All across Southern EU the governments are valuing assets as in the peak of the bubble because it suits them.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#284

Post by muyuu »

cdelsolar wrote: post #202
kkapelon wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents hous…

> I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). You bought the house when you were 9 and 4 years old, respectively?

Doesn't make a real difference, in some areas of Greece prices multiplied in mere years during urbanisation periods and during asset bubbles. Also, in rural areas plots and properties can go back several generations quite commonly.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#285

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

return0 wrote: post #272
muse900 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No and here is your mistake, sorry I have to call you an idiot because you triggered me. Someone that inherits property doesn't automatically mean that he/she is rich. They never rented out or sold any property, and they worked for private companies their whole lives. The money they had were pretty limited on what they could do. Also property in Greece is not like other countries of EU. Atm you can find flats in cent…

I m a greek idiot who doesnt own any houses. If i owned 4 i would certainly not consider myself middle-class.

Yeah, this is typical. I know this lady who owns one house in Plaka [1] right under the Acropolis, another in Kifissia [1] and lives in a house in the Liston [1], in Corfu (think Plaka, but on an Ionian Island). She never stops complaining about ENFIA [2] and how unfair it is that she has to pay property tax.

Well I don't have to pay any tax at all. Because I don't own anything. Sometimes it's just very hard to sympathise with people who are several times as wealthy as I am, and who complain because they will now have to pay taxes for it.

Because let's not forget that the devaluing of properties is a very recent thing. Until now having a couple of properties meant a steady stream of income- which most people would probably not have paid any tax on... because they dodged it. Which contributed to the dire situation we are in right now. And in particular caused the current government to resort to the harsh measures that are being imposed.

No, really- I don't want to see anyone punished, or having their properties repossessed, that's truly awful. But I can't really find it within me to feel, you know- compassionate.

________________

[1] To non-Greek readers: all those are very posh, very expensive districts in Athens or Corfu, the latter being one of the more well-off (and therefore, expensive) islands in the Ionian sea, the more upmarket set of Greek islands.

[2] A newly introduced property tax.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#286

Post by return0 »

atmosx wrote: post #282
return0 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats really a fringe case of some long-forgotten property in a no-construction zone. The solution is to disown the property. It's not a comparison of real price assessment

You think so? I came across another 2 cases of people I know who did not accept inheritance (houses in villages by remote dead relatives) because of ENFIA. How do you call that? Another fringe case? :-)

i call it fair. Why does having a business qualify you to pay taxes but having a property does not?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#287

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

dozzie wrote: post #94
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Europe at this point has no or almost no property tax.

Wikipedia disagrees on "has no property tax", and it's hard to tell anything about "has almost no property tax". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax#United_Kingdom

What's even worse- in the UK everyone but full-time students has to pay council tax, which is a tax on the property you live in even if you don't own it. Try telling that to the Greeks. They think you're joking.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#288

Post by fred_is_fred »

arethuza wrote: post #79
yagodragon wrote: post #68

I live in Greece and things are bad but as a matter of fact, the real problem is that we ,the Millennials, feel that we're screwed because we compare ourself with our parents. Our parents and our politicians really scammed the whole europe into believing that we have a strong economy but the truth is that everyone avoided paying taxes, they got huge loans that could never pay of and our politicians where really corru…

"Our parents and our politicians" And Goldman Sachs as well! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-cr...

Greece knew full well what they hired Goldman to do. You can't absolve them of that.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#289

Post by wutangson1 »

flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

There are not the facts! 0% for property up to €200K, is not the case. You do pay property taxes- ENFIA.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#290

Post by SocratesV »

return0 wrote: post #245
SocratesV wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Went to Crete a few years ago and was surprised by the number of (what seemed residential) buildings with unfinished roof/terrace, but otherwise being used and perfectly normal. You could see the concrete pillars with the steel bars coming out on top. Imagine it is some kind of way to dodge taxation since it is still considered unfinished? Have also read Michael Lewis' "Boomerang", which also has a lot of similar ane…

How many years ago? You might be experiencing the property boom - everything under construction with cheap loans from a careless ECB. It's not a way to dodge taxes. Many of those constructions were finished, others stayed halfway. What many of them have in common is they are looking for buyers.

This was fairly recent, 2013. The houses were otherwise perfectly good. Painted, with normal windows, normal doors, etc. Didn't seem like a they had been "completed" on a best effort basis (non-matching cheap windows, dodgy doors, etc).
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