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American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

theatlantic.com

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Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#281

Post by astrange »

BuckRogers wrote: post #56

That's a huge improvement over where we were a few years ago, when Steve Jobs died and I noted all the human misery and pain he caused with his employment of Foxconn sweatshops. My coworker said Jobs' life was worth more than those factory workers. I reminded him that everyone has equal worth and he seemed stunned at my forceful response. Noting that your life has to feel pretty hopeless to jump out the window of the…

Foxconn workers are less likely to commit suicide than Chinese in general, not more, which really weakens this argument.

Although Steve Jobs made more from investing in Pixar than Apple (I think) so the mental health of Toy Story animators could be an issue?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#282

Post by Spooky23 »

pappyo wrote: post #275
riskable wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think fully automated cars will have as drastic an impact on mechanics as 3D printed cars. A better question to ask is this: What happens to all the mechanics when getting an entirely new vehicle is cheaper than paying to have it fixed? The maintenance required of a 3D printed car will also probably be automated. There's no reason why we can't have robots replace tires, brake pads, and align wheels. Heck, the…

Right, so my hypothetical was more to show the lack of ability for the average person to predict the future...not actually predicting it. And that's the biggest flaw I see with a vocational education. It's preparing yourself tomorrow for the workforce of today. It can work, but be ready to be out of a job in an instant.

So you shouldn't pursue a computer science education?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#284

Post by Spooky23 »

bordercases wrote: post #280
Spooky23 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is my "old man" moment, but the magical world of 3D printed self driving cars that cost nothing really sounds like the flying car articles that you find in a circa 1960 Popular Mechanics.

I think this is a good perspective to have, but it might dissolve when you look at the technicalities of either problem. Airspace navigation vs, say, 3D-printing the electronics and parts necessary to make what I assume are electric cars are quite different challenges. Actually, saying that out loud makes me think that you're right.

I would have agreed with the flying around problem being super hard.

But now, we have guys in trailers on Nevada controlling swarms of drones all over the world. Amazon wants to deliver stuff with them.

Perhaps the airspace thing is an easier problem than the magic car! :)

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#285

Post by seanp2k2 »

rasz_pl wrote: post #277
keenerd wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already know how that is going to play out. Go ask your local radio and TV repairman. (Although they weren't helped by the fact that transistorized designs simply didn't have parts that were expected to burn out on a regular basis.)

oh, they do. Capacitors in modern switching circuits should be treated as perishable.

And paying someone who knows how to fix them their rate to replace a $.10 part can cost more than getting a new thing. I dug a 19" UltraSharp display out of the trash, tested it, and found the problem to be some bulging caps in the power supply for the backlight. The parts cost less than a dollar, and it took about 4-6 hours of my time total. I was billing $90/hr 10 years ago to do PC repair, and we didn't touch electronics, so given the value of my time, it was definitely not worth it for me to repair this monitor, which is maybe worth $100 now ($60 if you can find a good deal).

Since a car is so large and complex, I highly doubt that repair costs will exceed replacement costs in the foreseeable future. Disc brake pads are under $100 for a set of 4 for most vehicles. It's hard to find a car for $100 in any sort of road-going condition to make it more cost-effective to swap cars instead of doing the repair.

A head gasket is different. On many older cars, the cost to replace it exceeds the value of the vehicle. Related: http://jalopnik.com/the-time-smoke-came-pouring-out-of-my-br...

This is of course aside from things like insurance, registration, bills of sale, etc which make swapping vehicles a big hassle right now.

I honestly don't see this situation changing in the next 20 years, and the future I see is more in shared vehicle ownership, where instead of owning a car directly, one might join an organization for a few hundred dollars a month which provides access to a network of vehicles, possibly self-driving ones. Uber is, as far as I can tell, trying to be the first to do this, and they might even charge for actual usage instead of some flat monthly fee. BMW is also looking into this, but given they're a car company and not a tech company, I expect them to be badly beaten to market: http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/access-over-... (I'm sure there are other companies working on similar ideas as we speak).

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#286

Post by galfarragem »

brightball wrote: post #221
guscost wrote: post #43

I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's done some amazing journalism with "Dirty Jobs" and his mikeroweWORKS foundation is terrific. He claims that unconditional encouragement toward intellectual dreams does not help most people, and argues that more kids should be pursuing professional trades. This overlaps with one of the better suggestions from this article. In general I think these are hit or miss, and maybe too academ…

Absolutely true. It's not a matter of intelligence it's a matter of trust. Most employers I know value the employees who they know they can trust and rely on much more than the ones who think they're smarter than everyone else. There are needs to be filled. HVAC, plumbing, electrical, carpentry, general contracting, maintenance, janitorial, painting, roofing, auto repair, etc. You don't have to be a genius or close t…

I confirm everything you said.

My father, working as a tradesman, has more work that he can handle so I use to help him during work peaks (I've a non-STEM degree). You don't need to be a genious, only trustworthy. The problem IMO is that to be trustworthy you need to enjoy your trade and that is not exactly a personal choice (specially on the short term). Educated people are addicted to be challenged and to compete not to routinely execute stuff.

The low competition on trades is a symptom of a massive need of talent and huge opportunities.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#287

Post by yummyfajitas »

facetube wrote: post #249
yummyfajitas wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read all three studies. Rand and Oregon show more health care doesn't improve health. Sweden shows more money doesn't. What, exactly, are you disputing here?

The Sweden study absolutely does not show that, and I've explained why elsewhere in the thread. The mere fact that something is an RCT does not make it instantly generalizable to all populations, no matter how many times you repeat the claim. You'd need to at least control for pre-intervention access to care and study a US population to even get close to what you're claiming.

What's the mechanism by which you think wealth increases health? It's not getting more healthcare, since if it were Oregon should have increased health.

If it's buying non-medical things, what is the relevance of Sweden's UHC?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#288

Post by yummyfajitas »

facetube wrote: post #233
yummyfajitas wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we don't have a UBI. We have a ragbag of cash and in-kind transfers that add up to approx $20k. Go read the CBO study I linked to, it explains in detail. Why do you keep ignoring the research I've posted, and continue spreading myths? What do you gain from it?

I read a few of the links you posted. To support a claim that "giving people money does not improve health", you cited an RCT examining Swedish lottery winners who were already covered by a UHC program. People who already have high-quality health care don't spend their lottery winnings on more health care, and winning the lottery doesn't cause significant damage to health. Great. This says nothing about the US popula…

In the US we had a lottery that directly gave out healthcare. That also had no effect on health.

The Sweden result shows that money has little/no effect via non-healthcare purchase mechanisms, while Oregon shows healthcare directly has little/no effect.

What, exactly, is the mechanism you propose?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#289

Post by byw »

riskable wrote: post #225
pappyo wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just pointed out the problem with vocational education. Going to law school is a vocational education, as is getting an education to become a mechanic. Vocational educations take years (sometimes almost a decade) to complete. From the time you start your vocational education to the time you finish it, the market can drastically change (see Law and nursing). That lucrative job that you thought was waiting…

I don't think fully automated cars will have as drastic an impact on mechanics as 3D printed cars. A better question to ask is this: What happens to all the mechanics when getting an entirely new vehicle is cheaper than paying to have it fixed? The maintenance required of a 3D printed car will also probably be automated. There's no reason why we can't have robots replace tires, brake pads, and align wheels. Heck, the…

I think long before 3D-printed cars, the shift to all-electric drivetrains will put most mechanics out of business.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#290

Post by kofejnik »

lorenzhs wrote: post #138
kofejnik wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's very little doubt that Trump is an extremely smart person. Also, see http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberali...

I don't think the GP meant to say that Trump isn't smart. It's that the policies he suggests are meant to appeal to feelings, not rationality. They are thus more likely to attract voters who don't think through what those policies could mean, were they to be implemented. (Not saying those are all of his voters, there are other motivations as well. Also not from the US.)

To the contrary, I find many of his proposals very rational, and this rationality seems to hurt many people's feelings
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