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Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

theguardian.com

281–290 of 438 posts

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood this argument. The day you pull a gun on "government" is the day you will be killed on the spot, or sentenced to death row, or sent to life in prison with no chance of parole. You will be permanently removed from your comfortable life, and whomever takes that life away from you will face no penalty for doing so. So you own a handgun? The government will have assault rifles. Oh, you own an assaul…

No one is imagining turning into Rambo and overthrowing their local sheriff. The idea is that there are limits to how far the American people can be pushed before we - as a group - simply refuse to go along anymore. This stems directly from American history. The Constitution was written in a time when things like the Boston Massacre, Bunker Hill, and Col. Parker's stand in Concord and Lexington were fresh in the coll…

> No one is imagining turning into Rambo and overthrowing their local sheriff.

When I finish laughing, I'll read the rest of your comment, but for now, have an up.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, what's wrong with me then. I absolutely do not need a gun, ever. Nobody needs a gun. If you think you need a gun then you have serious problems. Let's talk about basic human needs. Food, water, Air, and to a lesser extent clothing and shelter. You don't need a gun for any of those things. Sure a gun can help with food, but guess what, you don't even need to eat meat, there are so many other sources of food. So n…

Respectfully, what right do you have to determine my needs? From a more practical perspective, what are you going to do about it? Are you proposing to take arms from the American people by force? How many deaths are acceptable to make that happen? To be clear, I don't mean the above as a threat or anything of the sort. I'm merely pointing out the certain result of a policy of disarmament, and the hypocrisy of using f…

Not to mention that self defense is a natural negative right. Gun ownership falls in the same category. My negative right to defend myself with a gun, from someone wishing to do me egregious or fatal harm doesn't affect anyone else.

There are negative rights and positive rights. We all could learn a little more about them. See 2.1.8 @ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/#2.1

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#283
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that the UK also doesn't have brown bears, black bears, mountain lions, wolves, coyotes, and a southern border with a country that routinely has horrific murders involving decapitated bodies. Personally I can understand why SOME Americans feel the need to carry a firearm. It's highly unlikely that you would be harmed by the animals mentioned above or even be affected by the violence in Mexico, but it…

Canada has all those things...

Indeed. And they also have comparatively high rates of firearms ownership per capita (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_c...). Hunting and protection from wild animals probably factor in to that.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, what's wrong with me then. I absolutely do not need a gun, ever. Nobody needs a gun. If you think you need a gun then you have serious problems. Let's talk about basic human needs. Food, water, Air, and to a lesser extent clothing and shelter. You don't need a gun for any of those things. Sure a gun can help with food, but guess what, you don't even need to eat meat, there are so many other sources of food. So n…

Respectfully, what right do you have to determine my needs? From a more practical perspective, what are you going to do about it? Are you proposing to take arms from the American people by force? How many deaths are acceptable to make that happen? To be clear, I don't mean the above as a threat or anything of the sort. I'm merely pointing out the certain result of a policy of disarmament, and the hypocrisy of using f…

It would never be an overnight event, it would take a generation of ratcheting restrictions. In that sense the "slippery slope" pro-gun people are right; the end point of incremental measures has to be a country with far fewer guns.

But it looks just as feasible from an ideological point of view as ending white supremacism in the US.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am quite pro-gun, and terrorism doesn't even register on the reasons why. I believe the same could be said of most everyone I know in that community. It's not about fear; it's primarily about a worldview that centers on individuality and distrust of government.

I've never understood this argument. The day you pull a gun on "government" is the day you will be killed on the spot, or sentenced to death row, or sent to life in prison with no chance of parole. You will be permanently removed from your comfortable life, and whomever takes that life away from you will face no penalty for doing so. So you own a handgun? The government will have assault rifles. Oh, you own an assaul…

That document was written because people were able to fight their government and win.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of discussion at the time, and my recollection is he was already known to mental health services. The Sun et al had him painted as a rabid survivalist of course. Wiki seems to say it was retrospective diagnosis, so I'm not sure... I can understand wanting to collect, or at least try, different types, but who in the world needs an assault rifle?

"who in the world needs an assault rifle?" People interested in self defense. The term "assault rifle" or "assault weapon" was made up by the media. An assault rifle is just your typical rifle that your great grandfather would have used for hunting back in the day. It is not what the media and politicians will lead you to believe. I think what leads people to ask this question is an major misunderstanding that an "as…

It was wikipedia that describes the AK 47 as an assault rifle. I followed a link from the hungerford page wondering what a type 56 was.

Wouldn't you be better off with a semi auto pistol if wanting self defence in a house? Rifle seems a little, well, unwieldy and better suited for range. Clearly I'm not an expert. :)

> People interested in self defense

See that's always been a difference in UK / US gun use and ownership.

If I were to shoot an attacker with even a .22 rimfire target pistol I'd expect to go to prison for a considerable number of years. Somehow we've managed to avoid the use of firearms in self defence aside from the occasional farmer with shotgun. Even then it gets widely reported and discussed.

Even at the height of legal gun ownership using one against a person, or in pursuit of a crime has been relatively rare. For the longest time using a firearm against police (generally unarmed here) carried a very high stigma and until the 60s likelihood of being hanged. It's still newsworthy for the police to get out an armed response unit in many areas.

The only self-defence legislation permits the use of reasonable force, which generally means the bare minimum you can get away with. Legally you can kill someone in self defence, but it's almost unheard of. Woe betide you if you hit them a little too hard or often and badly injure the poor burglar.

We tend to view discussion of home invasions and wanting self-defence weapons as a quaint excess of our transatlantic cousins. We don't keep firearms in the home, there are very few baseball (or even cricket) bats kept by our beds. We don't expect, or prepare for, home invasions. Probably in some of the worst areas it's a little more common, and illegal gun use a little higher.

It's interesting our nations diverged so much given gun ownership was fairly common here in earlier years, and both wars lead to many old service weapons kept in drawers and attics, unlicensed of course.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. I think it's ingrained in American culture (and the Constitution) that part of the purpose of personal gun ownership is to curb governmental power. How can gun control be justified when police are roaming around like a para-military group?

I completely agree that the "curb government power" is a common argument for gun ownership in the US. However, I've never understood the logic behind it. Do people really think their handgun is going to help them resist a predator drone strike? The US military is vastly more powerful than any gun owner. Do people really think they can compete? What's more, advocates of legal gun ownership often also push for more mil…

Tyrrany doesn't just occur at the highest levels. The argument works at lower levels. When local cops deal with major drug dealers that they know are armed to the hilt they usually treat the suspect with respect and carefully select a time to peacefully confront the person. But some (usually a minority) unarmed kid in a school committing a minor infraction? Gets a beat down.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. I think it's ingrained in American culture (and the Constitution) that part of the purpose of personal gun ownership is to curb governmental power. How can gun control be justified when police are roaming around like a para-military group?

I completely agree that the "curb government power" is a common argument for gun ownership in the US. However, I've never understood the logic behind it. Do people really think their handgun is going to help them resist a predator drone strike? The US military is vastly more powerful than any gun owner. Do people really think they can compete? What's more, advocates of legal gun ownership often also push for more mil…

That's why Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were a cakewalk - regular people with guns can't possibly resist predator drones and the like.

What you are actually missing is that guns are part of (some American's) tribal culture. The move to ban guns is mainly, at this point in time, a front in the culture wars. (Historically it was also about disarming blacks in order to empower terrorists.) There are many cultural artifacts and other enjoyable practices which kill people; Britain's drinking culture, gay sex (http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/basics/statistics.html), etc.

Gun control is mainly about attacking one of the cherished cultural values of our tribal enemies, in much the same way that Bush-era "faith based $X" or opposing various gay things is.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#289
post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

> firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m) Are you sure about those statistics? http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/total_num...

Sorry, that was indeed way out. The true number is a few hundred per year, still far lower per population than the US.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#290
post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

>> police are not routinely armed I'm a gun owner and this is the key point for me. No politician is in a position to tell me I don't need my semi-automatic pistol if every day I see a patrol car go by my house with 2 fully automatic AR-15s locked between the front seats and my local police department owns an armoured vehicle. If you really think you have a plan for getting rid of guns for bad guys as well as me, pro…

As an outsider, I've always wondered about this: Since a lot of people in America are so much hell bent on keeping a gun for a hypothetical future situation of government turning hostile (completely ignoring the 'real, actual' killings that are happening very frequently because some psycho got access to what they obtained for their own safety) - will all these people be personally willing to take responsibility and go to jail for (mass) murder if some psychopath gets access to their gun and shoots people because of their negligence? I mean someone sane should be responsible for the continued acts of psychopaths after all.
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