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Stop pushing the web forward

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Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#271

Post by immibis »

the8472 wrote: post #96
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a standard for most things happening in a browser There's POSIX, too. In practice, divergences are plentiful. Differences among current browsers are more among performance and experimental features The fact that are huge web tables meticulously documenting feature compatibilities across browsers implies differently. Besides, a lot of web standards are done post-facto. I don't see the situation as being any be…

> There's POSIX POSIX + a standard library for UI components + containerization + webassembly would be the "correct", cleanroom solution in my opinion. If you want to build and run "native but untrusted" applications on the user's computer on heterogenous environments and can't anticipate which APIs someone is going to need next. Well then give them access to a walled-off part of the computer. Same-origin policy? Rep…

POSIX is actually pretty horrible, if you look at the details. Guess what the "close" function does (hint: you can't use it to close a window or a sale). It requires the use of three-letter paths like /tmp.

(Related fact: While Windows is still as bad in that it gets its own things wrong, at least they weren't tied to POSIX's filesystem layout)

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#272

Post by immibis »

zhte415 wrote: post #85
digi_owl wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back before the PC, didn't IBM and some other mainframe companies try to lease out terminals? This in that you could get a terminal on your home desk, that either via dedicated line or basic dialup would connect to a mainframe where you paid minute or something? In a sense the web browser, and SaaS, has become a reinvention of that...

Still do, big business. Any data dependent system. Reuters / Bloomberg / Datastream. Rented out terminals of a centralized system.

With data dependent systems, I assume you pay for access to the data, not just for the ability to use a computer.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#273

Post by immibis »

cwyers wrote: post #104

I think this is the key: > The moratorium would hit Chrome much harder than it would the other browsers, since it’s Google that is proposing most of the new features nowadays. That may not be entirely fair, but it’s an unavoidable consequence of Chrome’s current position as the top browser — not only in market share, but also in supported features. Also, the fact that Google’s documentation ranges from lousy to non-e…

IE used to be the top browser, but look at how many other browsers implemented DirectShow filters. (Even on non-Windows platforms they should be emulateable)

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#274

Post by immibis »

ebauch wrote: post #24
anp wrote: post #9

I've seen this sentiment a few times: "don't try to replicate native apps in the browser." Which makes sense from the standpoint that the browser is just getting ridiculous, like a mini-OS unto itself. However, web apps also allow organizations to write once for many platforms in a much more seamless way than most cross-platform native toolkits I've seen. It's the same reason that desktop Java was in vogue for a litt…

Totally agree. Just look at the mess with mobile OS. It is nearly impossible to develop a native app yourself without excluding half of the world population. In my opinion, native mobile apps have been always an intermediary and I wouldn't mind seeing all of them going away if some better web app alternative comes along.

I guess by that reasoning desktop apps should go away too, and we should all run ChromeOS.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#275

Post by immibis »

NeutronBoy wrote: post #240
pdkl95 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can do better than native. No, you can't. Not even close. Just because you only ever use a subset of what can be done in a native application doesn't mean the rest of us don't. Also, which "native"? Win32 != OSX != X11 != mobile != ... > I can update web apps without troubling the end user, Which makes you the source of one of the most common types of user frustration: apps that change without their authorization…

All of those problems? Users don't know, don't understand, or don't care. Native? Regular users don't care if an app is native or not - they just want a well designed app that works across their laptop and tablet. Updates? That's probably one they do care about - they want it to happen without being interrupted. SaaS? Users don't care - value for them is about 'it just works', not some philosophical debate about if t…

For how many apps do users want it to work on their laptop and tablet? Personally, if it works well on tablets only, I'd just get out my tablet when I want to use it. It's not like I'm tied to using particular devices in particular locations.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#276

Post by immibis »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #261

I didn't see this discussed below, but I think when PPK says web’s strengths: simplicity, URLs and reach. I think he misses an important feature for me, as a user: Security. I just don't trust native apps. Even a non-malicious app can undermine your systems performance and behave badly. I've spent too many hours trying to "clean" windows systems, there is just no way I want to be installing native apps on them any mo…

Mobile apps are sandboxed already.

Windows is also pushing towards sandboxing desktop apps, but look at the backlash that's received. (Although they implemented it poorly - there are two completely different types of apps, and you have to choose one?)

(Also, realistically, installing trusted unsandboxed apps generally goes fine, because if they were malicious you would've heard about it by now)

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#277

Post by immibis »

392c91e8165b wrote: post #245

One thing I do to try to slow down the rate of change on the web is to upgrade my browser less often than most people. Specifically, I use Firefox Extended Support Release (ESR). Mozilla resisted providing this "update channel" (Firefox ESR) for years, but eventually yielded to the desires of large IT departments. Despite Mozilla's writing that "Firefox ESR is meant for organizations", with only one or 2 minor proble…

> will automatically upgrade itself

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no. No. Just no.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#278

Post by immibis »

rocky1138 wrote: post #82
vbezhenar wrote: post #62

I don't think web moved forward. There are some fun features, but the only thing I really see in last years is HTML video replacing Flash. Otherwise it's the same web as it was 10 years ago.

From a technology standpoint I agree with you, except that images have gotten larger in file size. Socially, we've lost the "anything is possible" vibe that the early web had, thanks to oppressive governments and spying.

> Socially, we've lost the "anything is possible" vibe that the early web had, thanks to oppressive governments and spying.

I'm not sure those two things have anything to do with each other.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#279

Post by grumblestumble »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #99
rgbrenner wrote: post #21

We need a break. We need an opportunity to learn to the features we already have responsibly — without tools! Also, we need the time for a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to. How about this.. YOU take a break. Stop trying to keep up with every little new thing that comes out. Wait a while. And you'll get exactly what you want. The tools that it turns out were a bad idea will die.…

Do you know PPK and his work? He's been at the cutting edge of web-standards and implementations for at least 12 years if my memory serves me correctly. >And you'll get exactly what you want. // If he wants to avoid the web being badly negatively effected by short term views of current browser companies and standards bodies then he won't get what he wants by sticking his head in the sand and ignoring the direction he…

I'm very familiar with PPK. I lifted my first 'getElementsByClassName' function directly from his site well over a decade ago. That doesn't mean that he hasn't descended into troll-level talking head status, generating controversy to drum up speaking appearances. Plus, we have MDN and caniuse.com now - he's irrelevant.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#280

Post by jay_kyburz »

immibis wrote: post #276
jay_kyburz wrote: post #261

I didn't see this discussed below, but I think when PPK says web’s strengths: simplicity, URLs and reach. I think he misses an important feature for me, as a user: Security. I just don't trust native apps. Even a non-malicious app can undermine your systems performance and behave badly. I've spent too many hours trying to "clean" windows systems, there is just no way I want to be installing native apps on them any mo…

Mobile apps are sandboxed already. Windows is also pushing towards sandboxing desktop apps, but look at the backlash that's received. (Although they implemented it poorly - there are two completely different types of apps, and you have to choose one?) (Also, realistically, installing trusted unsandboxed apps generally goes fine, because if they were malicious you would've heard about it by now)

How do you define _trusted_ apps. The windows app store is full of junk.
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