Stop pushing the web forward • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#231

Post by pdkl95 » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 11:31 PM UTC

buckbova wrote: post #183

> We’re pushing the web forward to emulate native more and more, but we can’t out-native native. I can do better than native. I can update web apps without troubling the end user, fix bugs and make improvements immediately. I can balance processing where heavy lifting is done on my servers and simple processing done on the client. I can store immense data in the cloud freeing the end user's machine from any such junk…

> I can do better than native.

No, you can't. Not even close. Just because you only ever use a subset of what can be done in a native application doesn't mean the rest of us don't.

Also, which "native"? Win32 != OSX != X11 != mobile != ...

> I can update web apps without troubling the end user,

Which makes you the source of one of the most common types of user frustration: apps that change without their authorization, sometimes breaking important things that used to work just fine.

> ... processing ... done on my servers ...

Ahh, so you just want to lock people in using Service as a Software Substitute[1]. Trying to do an end-run around "1st sale" rights to insert yourself as a middleman where none was needed previously is terrible, sociopathic behavior.

> I can store immense data in the cloud freeing the end user's machine from any such junk, aside from maybe a cookie, and stream it on demand.

The user also has to trust that you will handle their data sanely (and not "monetize" - including using or selling the analytics of their usage patterns). They have to trust that you will not betray them and hold their data for ransom. They have to deal with the fact that you will hand over any of their data in bulk when the government shows up with a national security letter. They have to trust that you are competent at programming and have not stored passwords or allowed their data to be stolen.

The trade off being made by storing data remotely is huge, stop pretending it doesn't exist.

> Navigate to URL

And when internet access isn't available? Don't believe for a second that this isn't a problem. The reasons why are far too numerous to list; it would require a lot of wilful ignorance to pretend otherwise.

> Why should someone have to install anything

Because they like to actually use all of the features a native app can provide?

Because they don't want to risk their data with an external service?

Because they don't want to depend on the availability and whims of an external service?

Because they are tired of the lies and doublespeak the computer industry has been saying about "the cloud"?[2]

[1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-se...

[2] https://projectbullrun.org/surveillance/2015/video-2015.html...

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#232

Post by n0mad01 » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 11:38 PM UTC

some truth has been spoken - broken features should be fixed first - then we'll look again towards the future.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#233

Post by sanderjd » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 11:39 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #186

sanderjd wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: is abusing canvas really becoming prevalent? The only web app I've seen doing this is flipboard.

Prevalent? I don't know. I do think it's just a matter of time before some companies leverage this by providing a super simple web page developer tool a la Frontpage Extensions. Photography studio webpage that just wants a carousel and music playing? Check. Small companies that freak out about people stealing their inventory list? Check. Vendor lock in for the poor souls that fall for this? CHECK .

Hmmm, maybe I'm naive, but I really don't see anything to suggest that things are headed this direction.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#234

Post by nostrademons » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 11:42 PM UTC

pfooti wrote: post #229

tracker1 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's such a shame that there are still new Android 4.x devices being produced...

isn't 4.x kitkat? It's the 3.x devices that cause issues, and those are preeeeetty old.

4.4 is KitKat. 4.0 is ICS, 4.1-4.3 are Jellybean releases.

For native apps, anything Jellybean or better is reasonably easy to deal with (and ICS isn't that bad). But for webapps, the system webview was the horrible default Android browser up until KitKat, and didn't get auto-update until Lollipop. Android Browser has a number of outright bugs in its spec compliance (when I was developing for Google Search, we thought of it as the new IE6), and you lose any sort of GPU acceleration or fast JS engine that you might want for animations.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#235

Post by Mikushi » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 11:48 PM UTC

TeeWEE wrote: post #147

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know PPK and his work? He's been at the cutting edge of web-standards and implementations for at least 12 years if my memory serves me correctly. >And you'll get exactly what you want. // If he wants to avoid the web being badly negatively effected by short term views of current browser companies and standards bodies then he won't get what he wants by sticking his head in the sand and ignoring the direction he…

The fact that PPK did a lot of good work on web, doesnt mean this article is good. Any genius can create crapwork. So did albert einstein. I once saw a presentation from PPK where he proposed JSON over SMS....( http://quirksmode.org/presentations/Spring2012/bigm.pdf ) IMHO that presentation was technically not very strong.

The post is neither good or bad. You just happen to disagree with the author.

I for one have been bitching (my colleagues know all about it) about the state of affairs in web dev for about year, and so far most people tend to agree. And my current project (mostly heavy Javascript) just reinforces that view, it's a total mess for little real gain.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#236

Post by agumonkey » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 11:49 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #63

rgbrenner wrote: post #21

We need a break. We need an opportunity to learn to the features we already have responsibly — without tools! Also, we need the time for a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to. How about this.. YOU take a break. Stop trying to keep up with every little new thing that comes out. Wait a while. And you'll get exactly what you want. The tools that it turns out were a bad idea will die.…

By the way, one of the best websites I know, c2.com (I don't know anything about this consulting company, but these pages constantly come up in search results and offer best advice possible), manages to deliver the best content with HTMLs that mostly can be read in Mosaic and Lynx.

Another proof that this whole web debate isn't going anywhere useful. Lot's of old places are full of amazing content. Maybe restricted communications channels allows for smarter conversations ? You have to tailor and curate the ideas. Mailing lists for instance are still used by real developers everywhere, IRC. Add a few blogs and old boards and you get 80%.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#237

Post by oldmanjay » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 11:52 PM UTC

yellowapple wrote: post #199

simoncion wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [The JVM is] still unusable for end-user applications because [it makes application startup slow and uses too much RAM.] I can't agree. The poster child for "bloated, overweight, slow-as-shit Java application" is Eclipse. Circa 2013, I found it to be not substantially slower or any less usable than Visual Studio on the exact same hardware.

That's implying that Visual Studio isn't also bloated, overweight, and slow-as-shit - three traits which VS serves as the textbook definition of. It makes Emacs look like ed in comparison, yet without offering any actual improvement in functionality. In other words, "but it's on par with Visual Studio" does absolutely nothing to counter the argument that the JVM is unusable for end-user applications; if anything, it…

>It makes Emacs look like ed in comparison, yet without offering any actual improvement in functionality.

Well, it does offer the functionality of being usable integrated environment, which I know a lot of the emacs/vi people dismiss, but it's a very real thing despite those dismissals.

On the other hand, I don't really care much, since I've never had the emacs/vi user disease of insisting that everyone else acknowledge that my opinions are superior.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#238

Post by bcheung » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 11:54 PM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #21

We need a break. We need an opportunity to learn to the features we already have responsibly — without tools! Also, we need the time for a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to. How about this.. YOU take a break. Stop trying to keep up with every little new thing that comes out. Wait a while. And you'll get exactly what you want. The tools that it turns out were a bad idea will die.…

While it is probably true that we "can't out-native native" the argument is irrelevant if you consider other more important factors.

The approval process is burdensome and discriminatory if you want to release an app that competes with Apple or goes against one of their policies.

For developers that want to create great mobile user interfaces and Apple won't approve the app, where does that leave us? No user experience or a sub-optimal user experience. If we do what PPK is proposing that leaves us with poor user experiences and maybe no user experience if we need a feature that is only available on native.

Having a web platform that can compete with native apps mitigates the problems and abuses common with companies that have monopolies. If they have competition they can't screw over their developers and user.

30% is an onerous tax. It's one thing if that is a marketing or referral fee. But if a developer is creating an app to use with their own platform / service they are most likely going to provide a download link from their site. They don't need any promotion or directory. Apple isn't providing any value. They are creating an artificial barrier and blocking other companies from serving their users just so they can get a cut of the action.

I've been using ES6 functionality like "yield" in my backend node.js code and am loving it. I would love to have that ability in the browser without having to go through a transpiler.

I want the web to keep pushing forward so that I can deliver better user experiences.

The argument that we need time to catch up and learn the technology seems ridiculous to me considering that the alternative is learning 3 platforms (web, iOS, Android) vs just 1 platform (web). A lot of developers don't want to have to develop for 3 different platforms.

If you can't keep up with all the technologies then become a monk and leave the technology world behind.

Nobody has been able to keep up with all the latest technology trends. Deal with it. Those that want to deliver better user experiences will invest the time to learn the new technologies.

Don't hold back progress just because you have a defeatist, why me, it's not fair, slow down guys, I can't keep up attitude.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#239

Post by bcheung » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 12:01 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #99

rgbrenner wrote: post #21

We need a break. We need an opportunity to learn to the features we already have responsibly — without tools! Also, we need the time for a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to. How about this.. YOU take a break. Stop trying to keep up with every little new thing that comes out. Wait a while. And you'll get exactly what you want. The tools that it turns out were a bad idea will die.…

Do you know PPK and his work? He's been at the cutting edge of web-standards and implementations for at least 12 years if my memory serves me correctly. >And you'll get exactly what you want. // If he wants to avoid the web being badly negatively effected by short term views of current browser companies and standards bodies then he won't get what he wants by sticking his head in the sand and ignoring the direction he…

> PPK is doing the equivalent of saying "let's stop and ask for directions [on our car journey]" and you're saying "no, let's just keep driving I'm sure we'll get to where we want to go".

Just because one person is lost doesn't mean everyone else in the vehicle is. Those who know where they are going don't need to stop and ask for directions. Don't force them to.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#240

Post by NeutronBoy » Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 12:06 AM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #231

buckbova wrote: post #183

> We’re pushing the web forward to emulate native more and more, but we can’t out-native native. I can do better than native. I can update web apps without troubling the end user, fix bugs and make improvements immediately. I can balance processing where heavy lifting is done on my servers and simple processing done on the client. I can store immense data in the cloud freeing the end user's machine from any such junk…

> I can do better than native. No, you can't. Not even close. Just because you only ever use a subset of what can be done in a native application doesn't mean the rest of us don't. Also, which "native"? Win32 != OSX != X11 != mobile != ... > I can update web apps without troubling the end user, Which makes you the source of one of the most common types of user frustration: apps that change without their authorization…

All of those problems? Users don't know, don't understand, or don't care.

Native? Regular users don't care if an app is native or not - they just want a well designed app that works across their laptop and tablet.

Updates? That's probably one they do care about - they want it to happen without being interrupted.

SaaS? Users don't care - value for them is about 'it just works', not some philosophical debate about if they only have a limited use license for the music they stream on Spotify. If Spotify shuts down, they'll move to the next service.

Cloud storage? Users want their stuff to be accessible from their phone, tablet, and laptop. We need to educate them about risks with that, and put transparent controls in place to help them.

Installing apps? Users don't care - just make being able to use an app easy. Website, app store, whatever.

As a developer, it's your (our) responsibility to help the user figure out where it matters in terms of getting the outcome the users want. Hide the shit they don't care about, educate them in language and terms they understand about the things that do matter, and don't annoy them with inconsequential stuff.