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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#271

Post by bluehat »

datashovel wrote: post #184
datashovel wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine at least one likely useful, but probably extremely invasive policy. But if, based on all of these recent blog posts, this is as pervasive as we're lead to believe then I would argue that invasive policies are the least of your concerns. For all company events pair people up and make each persons' well-being the other person's responsibility. In the sense that they will share the responsiblity for report…

as an addendum to that: If your partner didn't see it, it didn't happen. This would force the pair to stick together at all times if they were at all concerned for their well-being.

This sounds pretty shitty to live. I would like to think we can do better.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#272

Post by admiralpumpkin »

alextgordon wrote: post #197
jusben1369 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look through the comments here and in other similar threads you'll see numerous variations on the "what wait? just leave." It's an understandable but wrong response to these situations. It shifts the problem from the perpetrator to the victim. It's similar to asking women to be covered from head to toe so that they can't somehow tempt males. The onus isn't on the male to control his desires it's on the female…

You unwittingly fall into an enclosure filled with angry chimpanzees. A crowd gathers, and shouts "Leave the enclosure, climb out, there's a ladder!" Another crowd gathers and shouts at the first crowd "Shut up. Stop blaming the victim!" Which crowd has your best interests at heart?

I'll help you out here:

You unwittingly fall into an enclosure filled with angry chimpanzees.

Some of the chimpanzees are guarding a ladder. You can't see where it leads.

You notice other people have fallen into the enclosure too. They help you stand up and remind you that the chimps suck.

Who has your best interests at heart?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#273

Post by jrochkind1 »

meowface wrote: post #39
grey-area wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringing it up internally in a company; the potential damage to reputation, career and wellbeing can outweigh the slim possibility of justice (and it is a slim one, because often there are no witnesses). Just talking about this would be a huge decision for anyone, let…

I think there are valid points to both sides. Yes, clearly there is a problem (I don't think the problem is unique to tech), but if you constantly live in fear of the consequences of actions which you never take, you're really stuck in an endless cycle. If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especia…

> I think there are valid points to both sides.

What is it you think are the two sides here?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#274

Post by jrochkind1 »

datashovel wrote: post #171
abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

I can imagine at least one likely useful, but probably extremely invasive policy. But if, based on all of these recent blog posts, this is as pervasive as we're lead to believe then I would argue that invasive policies are the least of your concerns. For all company events pair people up and make each persons' well-being the other person's responsibility. In the sense that they will share the responsiblity for report…

How about instead, we all share responsibility for keeping each other safe in the workplace? All of us who care about our coworkers being kept safe anyway.

I liked the OP for it's message in that direction.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#275

Post by AnkhMorporkian »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #270
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it happens at an equal rate, then that means perhaps we shouldn't be focusing on tech companies specifically but in the legal framework that allows this to slip through the cracks. Morality can be on our side all we like, but companies of any decent size are way more interested in the law than morality.

One of the things I found most useful and insightful in the OP is a focus on things we can do to change our organizational and personal behaviors to actually keep people safe and treated with dignity, as opposed to just avoiding legal liability, since that has not succeeded in making people safe and treated with dignity. A "focus on the legal frameworks" is not the only avenue for action, and may not be the most effe…

I'm not trying to discourage discussion, but I think history has proven that even strong sexual harassment policies do little by themselves. Some people will harass regardless of the consequences, and companies will do what they can to avoid lawsuits and making waves. Changing behaviors is great, but the best time to do that isn't anywhere near the workplace, it's during the formative years. People don't suddenly start working at Google and decide to sexually harass.

While we can work on our own to try to improve the tech sector, I firmly believe that a more effective solution (for both the tech sector and the country at large) is to address it via legal means and education.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#276

Post by xai3luGi »

dang wrote: post #13
bluehat wrote: post #5

I'm really sad this got downvoted off the front page (this article is only one hour old with 9 points, things 3 hours old with 9 points are still on the page). It's cool if not everybody is interested in talking about this, but I feel like the entire point of this article was that making whistle-blowers harder to hear is not good for society.

It didn't get downvoted; medium.com is in a class of websites that get mildly penalized by default pending moderator review. Not a great solution, but the alternative is reams of blogspam and fluff making the front page just because so much of it gets posted. We remove the penalty from solid articles (and typically reset the clock on them to restore a fair time window for upvotes), but it sometimes takes a while befo…

I agree with bootload, how about publishing all the penalties directly under the post?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#277

Post by bluehat »

Jemaclus wrote: post #181

As a hetero male that is relatively new to management, what can I do to let my direct reports, indirect reports, and other colleagues know that they can report these kinds of things to me, and I will take them seriously? I don't have any women reporting directly to me right now, but it's very likely to happen over the next year, and I want to be proactive from the get-go.

Your eagerness to help is very good, and I think expressing that you care about these issues to your employees is great, but unless you tattoo it on your forehead, most employees won't know about your personal stances. Your personal stance will come much more into play when a complaint is brought to management level, since the odds of you being the one randomly handed it are pretty low.

I think the lowest hanging fruit in your own workplace will be to make sure the escalation structures that already exist are strong, protect those who are afraid, and have clearly defined expected fair outcomes for when a complaint is heard. Too often reports of problems just disappear into management and die down before anything happens because nobody's planned out what they are suppose to do if there is a problem.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#278

Post by MichaelGG »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #253

Wow. This is such a good piece. Seriously, this is incredibly well-thought out and well-written, in a very intentional way. Thanks to the author. I am pleased that it's on the HN front page. And I was at first pleased to see such a long comments thread, that people were interested in discussing it. But man, this discussion is depressing me. Arguing about the legal definition of rape, really, that's what HN feels like…

The discussion on the definition is because we're shocked that someone could be repeatedly raped without calling the cops. From accounts I've heard, rape seems much more serious than, say, being mugged or stabbed. If someone were to say they were mugged several times by a colleague, we'd ask why the cops weren't called. Hence it's terribly upsetting to hear a colleague repeatedly does worse.

But if the definition of mugged was that someone's colleague repeatedly left them with $500 bar tabs that they felt compelled to pay, then we might say, yeah, I see the issue. It's not actually a legal mugging in such a case, even if it's effectively as bad (minus the trauma of having, say, a gun pointed at you).

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#279

Post by abalone »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #263
abalone wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to split hairs but legally it looks like many or most states draw a distinction between sexual extortion and rape.[1] The difference being that sextortion is a lesser felony. I wonder if that is the case here. Certainly sextortion among engineers/scientists would be an extraordinarily troubling state of affairs. But based on the OP's comments here[2] she is referring to rape and that the enabling factor…

I mean, well, you do mean to split legal hairs, clearly. Why are they relevant to the discussion? What do you think it is we're discussing?

Not at all. It's that the strategies startups can adopt to fight sextortion are different from ones to fight being forced to see your rapist in social situations. That's why it's important to understand the specific scenario: solutions are different.

Sextortion could happen even without pressure to hang out in social situations, for example. One person simply extorts another, forces them to meet in private. But what the OP is describing seems to be more in the realm of, I don't want to be alone around this person but I have to for professional reasons, and they keep taking advantage of it to rape.

That might be something that startups can actually target with policies that ensure unsupervised social contact with colleagues is not necessary for professional advancement. That's not really on anyone's radar, it seems.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#280

Post by bluehat »

exodust wrote: post #268

"I have had interviewers attempt to solicit sexual favors from me mid-interview and discuss in significant detail precisely what they would like to do" Bullshit.

Of every claim you have heard, this is the one you think isn't real?
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