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I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

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Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#271
I am French and liberal, my views on economy are considered extreme liberalism in my country, but I when I read things like this I am even more thankful for our education system.

The French scientific higher-education system is weird and misunderstood even in other European countries, so here's a (very simplified) explanation of the road I followed and how much it cost.

After high school, if you have good enough grades (say top 10%) you can enter something called Classes Préparatoires, which is a rather intense scientific (Math + Physics) preparation for competitive exams for the Grandes Écoles. It lasts two years, three if you decide to repeat the second year because you are not satisfied with your results at the exams (repeating the first year is forbidden, if your fail you have to go to a regular University - which is also cheap anyway -, but only 10-20% fail the 1st year).

There is a lot to say about how the way we are taught in Classes Préparatoires should change, but there is something right about them: they are completely free. Oh, and if you (your family) cannot afford rent and/or food, you can get funding from the government for this.

After Classes Préparatoires, if you succeed at the competitive exams, you get into a "Grande École" (Engineering School). Studies usually last three or four years and you get a Diplôme d'Ingénieur at the end (basically what you call MSc in the US).

All the top Grandes Écoles are public and depend on different ministries (Education, Industry or Defense). The cost of studying there is below €1000/year. You can still be subsidized if needed, and you are encouraged (actually it is even mandatory) to make paid internships which pay for your studies. Actually, the two top Engineering Schools (Polytechnique and École Nationale Supérieure) even pay students who study there.

Oh, and you are encouraged to go abroad. You can do an internship in another country or go there to specialize during your 3rd year. In my case I went to a British University to specialize in Distributed Computing. The cost of studying there is much higher but since I was a guest student from another European University I didn't pay (except campus rent). It also works with the US, although I am not sure how: some friends did the same thing at Standford and MIT.

In the end, I got two MSc-s (one in France and one in UK), and my tuition fees for the entire thing amount to about €3000.

There are very few things I think a State should pay for, but top higher education is definitely one of them.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#272
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically nothing you said actually made a case against anything I said, or for the thesis that it is easy to self teach. Just stating this for the record.

Could you explain briefly why this is the case? I don't understand.

Well, what was his argument? Based on his second reply, he seems to think that because it only depends on your ability to reason that it should be easy. But doesn't that trivialize the matter? As long as we have mathematical models, as we do in physics and in chemistry, then it should be just as easy to learn physics and chemistry.* So then what does he consider hard to learn? Are the social sciences hard to learn? The 'it is of the mind' is a non-argument to me. And I don't think he addressed anything I said.

Anyway, this is almost irrelevant to what I was saying. Even if you assume every person can reason well, I'm saying you could still be in error unless you seek validation and guidance. It's really easy to think you've given a solid argument for something, but actually be wrong. It happens to everyone.

*By the way, there is a definite trend in physics for math, instead of experimentation, to be leading the way towards discovery.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#273
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And from the famous Ivy League schools, it's generally easier to get accepted for a Ph.D. than for a Bachelors. Since in many cases PhD is basically free, it is by far more competitive than Bachelors.

>Since in many cases PhD is basically free In many cases an Ivy League Bachelors is basically free as well. Between tuition waivers for lower income students, and parents paying for higher income students, an Ivy League Bachelors is effectively free to most of the time.

The "free" Bachelors is still mostly the privilege of American students (with a few truly exception international students sprinkled in).

For PhD, As sidww2 pointed out, and what I have experienced as well, the admission pool becomes much more international; and now you are competing with the world. There is a phrase about China saying that underlines the scale well: "in China when you are one in a million -- there are 1,300 other people just like you".

Moreover, overall the number of spots in graduate schools is by far smaller than for undergrad; making competition even tougher.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#274
post #33
post #14

I agree with the ultimate sentiment, which is that it's generally inadvisable to try and pay your way through school these days. The federal government will let you and your parents borrow as much as you need to pay for school, and you'll make more money after you finish your degree, so your efforts are better spent trying to finish in as few semesters as possible to minimize the amount of money you need to borrow in…

Is there still a screw case for "kids from wealthier families" when the families refuse to help? At least during the '80s, I was told I was ineligible for any financial aid.

Yeah, that is half of why I dropped out of MIT (the other half was chance to do an ecash startup, but I was financially screwed for this reason otherwise; the alternative was ROTC)

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#275
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how HECS is a lot better than the US system. "Poor" people still have to pay 10% (accumulated) interest on the loan (it does not matter if the interest is called 'discount') and you still leave the system with a loan of $18-30k. If a country wants to advance technologically or academically, it should have cost-free universities like there are cost-free schools. Why do people not understand that?

Why do people not understand that many people are poor not because they were born into something less than a utopia but because they are lazy or happy that way or they make bad decisions or are just plain ignorant? Have you once stopped to consider that there may not be anything close to a perfect system for lifting people out of poverty? Perhaps a system that provides possibility that requires loads of effort to tak…

I was not talking about poverty or who's paying what.

I'm just saying that putting economic burdens on higher education is not a wise decision for a country that wants to advance technologically or academically.

With respect to who's paying what: I think the country has way enough money, the question is "just" on what do you want to spend it.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#276
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how HECS is a lot better than the US system. "Poor" people still have to pay 10% (accumulated) interest on the loan (it does not matter if the interest is called 'discount') and you still leave the system with a loan of $18-30k. If a country wants to advance technologically or academically, it should have cost-free universities like there are cost-free schools. Why do people not understand that?

Does it help that the 10% discount is going away in 6 months time? http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/news/pages/chang...

You are right, the interest is not the point. The point is

You still leave uni with $18-30k debt.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#277
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In germany most degrees are free, besides somtimes a 500,- € or so fee per semester. Excetions are MBAs and certain part-time studies. I'll start a Master of Business Administration and Engineering in Octobre that costs a neat 104,- Euro per year.

That's outstanding and to be encouraged, but I do think that HECS is an elegant solution - you're only eligible to pay back your studies when your salary rises above a mediocre level. Australians can also get a small stipend to live on during their undergraduate degree (I think Germany does this as well, but I'm not sure).

Yes, we have something called Bafoeg (great german abbriviation for a law ;-)). It's valid for all forms of education (most of them, apparently there's a white list), given you're total income and assets are below a certain threshold.

And yes, these systems are really nice for students with low income or wealth. They open up opportunities and provide education to more people, which is always good I think.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#278

I couldn't even afford to get INTO university. By 18, I had to pay $1000/month rent or get kicked out. My family had NO money saved to help with college. I wasn't eligible for any scholarships I could find. The city I was in paid minimum wage for EVERYTHING, even skilled work. I worked $8/hour doing web development. I tried saving up enough to even just move away. 3 years later, and not a penny ahead, I just threw ca…

Hey - Just wanted to say great job on taking the plunge to get yourself out of that situation. That really takes a lot of courage throwing yourself into an unknown situation like that - I really hope others can learn from your experience if they're in a dire situation as you were.

It's difficult to escape that sort of situation, but it doesn't get easier. It gets harder, and faster-paced. And that's a good thing.

Adversity is a force that not only pushes us back when we feel fear, but also pushes us forward when we feel determination. How much you want a thing will determine which way you move.

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