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Data centers trigger voter backlash

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Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#271

Post by nozzlegear »

anthonypasq wrote: post #167
thewillowcat wrote: post #93

I can tell you, based on local examples, that politicians are setting up deals to bring in data centers without trying to build community support first. Not only that, they are often signing NDAs that prohibit them from telling voters what they have agreed to. It's no way to operate in a democracy, and voters are right to be angry.

> I can tell you, based on local examples, that politicians are setting up deals to bring in data centers without trying to build community support first. Not only that, they are often signing NDAs that prohibit them from telling voters what they have agreed to. It's no way to operate in a democracy, and voters are right to be angry. People believing they are entitled to dictate what other people do with their proper…

Amen, NIMBYs have ruined this country. Abolish zoning laws and nuke the suburbs, yeeclaw!

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#272

Post by stvltvs »

watwut wrote: post #265
sokoloff wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who create wealth for society by inventing and providing goods and services that others find valuable enough to buy are, by definition, not rent seeking when they do those things. If you have complaints against rent seekers, that’s fine, but that’s not against “labor saving innovations” and it would probably serve you well to not confuse them, so you don’t inadvertently object to life-improving inventions.

> inventing and providing goods and services that others find valuable enough to buy Are not getting rich. They get lower and middle class salaries.

Right, it's usually not the inventors, artists, etc. who reap the wealth generated by their creativity. The already-wealthy divert a disproportionate share of that productivity to themselves.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#273

Post by nozzlegear »

ajross wrote: post #217
anthonypasq wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can tell you, based on local examples, that politicians are setting up deals to bring in data centers without trying to build community support first. Not only that, they are often signing NDAs that prohibit them from telling voters what they have agreed to. It's no way to operate in a democracy, and voters are right to be angry. People believing they are entitled to dictate what other people do with their proper…

> People believing they are entitled to dictate what other people do with their property, or believing they should have some say in the "character" of their neighborhood So... iron smeltery next door for you then? Acid rain? Come on. There is reasonable concern for property rights and civil coexistence and then there's Randian Libertarian Claptrap, and you've hopped right into the deep end. YES , government has a cle…

Just tax acid rain byproduct

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#274

Post by miiiiiike »

oblio wrote: post #263
miiiiiike wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2008 is apples vs oranges. The proposed data center site is across the street from the dump, just south of the airport. It’s zoned for heavy industrial use. Literally anything that they could build there other than a data center would have a greater negative impact on the environment and a far less positive economic impact. I could build a concrete crushing plant there.

Most other things they could build there could create a lot more local jobs.

And create a lot more pollution while generating much, much less in property tax revenue.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#275

Post by qurren »

miiiiiike wrote: post #245
qurren wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s really hard to explain that centers aren’t bad and are actually far more efficient than the alternatives. This isn't about efficiency, power, water, or fire. AT ALL. Massive amounts of people have their jobs and livelihood threatened. The datacenters, which are enabling that, are being deployed in their neighborhoods while everyone in that neighborhood goes jobless. There is no plan of relief in the form of be…

I’ve noticed that people conflate being anti data center with being anti AI. I don’t have any faith in the current crop of gen AI. I think it’s junk. I don’t think it’s replacing humans in drives. I can barely get it to refactor Sass code into a mixin. Even if the AI bubble pops the world isn’t going to need fewer data centers. If a speculator wants to create a bunch of construction jobs, build a site in a region wit…

It's junk for mission-critical software. But stock photographers, tutors, therapists, writers, translators, designers, and others are being replaced in droves. The snowball is starting.

Even plumbers. AI told me what to buy from Home Depot and I diagnosed and fixed my last 2 plumbing problems myself.

And lawyers. I fought some minor issues on my own with AI guidance.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#276

Post by miiiiiike »

qurren wrote: post #275
miiiiiike wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve noticed that people conflate being anti data center with being anti AI. I don’t have any faith in the current crop of gen AI. I think it’s junk. I don’t think it’s replacing humans in drives. I can barely get it to refactor Sass code into a mixin. Even if the AI bubble pops the world isn’t going to need fewer data centers. If a speculator wants to create a bunch of construction jobs, build a site in a region wit…

It's junk for mission-critical software. But stock photographers, tutors, therapists, writers, translators, designers, and others are being replaced in droves. The snowball is starting. Even plumbers. AI told me what to buy from Home Depot and I diagnosed and fixed my last 2 plumbing problems myself. And lawyers. I fought some minor issues on my own with AI guidance.

What a bad idea AI therapy is and I don’t know too many people who are using AI art commercially. Translators, sure. But we’ve been using Google Translate for almost two decades now.

You didn’t need AI for your plumbing. My dad had a whole set of books on household chores that we used to fix everything.

I do more of the work around my house than most. I won’t touch tall trees to fuck with my breaker box. I do most of my own plumbing.

But, plumbers are fine. Most people don’t want to handle their own shit.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#277

Post by stvltvs »

xp84 wrote: post #240
stvltvs wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be happy with a disproportionate amount of wealth going to rent seekers because they let us buy their goods and work in their companies making them even wealthier? The wealthy always skew the rules to favor themselves, e.g. US capital gains being taxed at a lower rate than labor. The global standard of living has been going up but could be even higher if wealth was distributed more justly.

> but could be even higher if wealth was distributed more justly. Unfalsifiable claim since we can't predict what could have been if things had been done completely differently. But, Cuba distributes wealth more justly, so where are all the innovators coming out of Cuba? Where is the quality of life? In fact, there are undoubtedly more Cubans building things, inventing things, and performing valuable services in the…

There are many alternative ways to distribute wealth, Cuban communism being only one of them. Capitalists would like us to believe in a false dichotomy between democratic capitalism and totalitarian communism.

Instead of Cuba, why not point to the sovereign wealth funds of Norway or Alaska? Or farmers' co-ops in the American midwest? Or just the generally successful democratic socialist countries in Europe where standard of living is better by many measures than in the US?

None of those are perfect, but they show that commerce and wealth distribution don't have to be purely "it takes money to make money".

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#279

Post by DANmode »

_doctor_love wrote: post #218
anthonypasq wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can tell you, based on local examples, that politicians are setting up deals to bring in data centers without trying to build community support first. Not only that, they are often signing NDAs that prohibit them from telling voters what they have agreed to. It's no way to operate in a democracy, and voters are right to be angry. People believing they are entitled to dictate what other people do with their proper…

Your argument makes sense until you have a horrible neighbor. You can see it in action in a state like Montana which to my knowledge prohibits housing covenants. Want to park 12 cars that are rusting in your front yard? Do it! Neighbors can't do anything about it. But that does have the effect of lowering property value and degrading the neighborhood.

You may be confusing Montana with a much-worse place.

Or confusing with State law preventing homeowners' associations (HOAs) from enforcing new covenants that restrict the use of your property, compared to what was allowed when you originally purchased it.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#280

Post by miiiiiike »

micro2588 wrote: post #270
miiiiiike wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I’m talking about my region. We have a nuclear generating station 16 miles from the proposed site of the data center. That station sells 80-85% of the power generated wholesale to other parts of the state and grids regionally.

The nuclear generating station is part of a larger system. Say you build enough data centers in your local area to use up all the station power so that 80% is no longer exported, what is getting built somewhere else to make up for that missing generation the data centers now use? Its not new nuclear. When you add data center load to a grid how the additional generation is supplied is really what matters in terms of i…

We should have been building additional nuclear capacity for the past 50 years. The kinds of anti data center activism we’re seeing now was directed at nuclear back then.

It would take decades to build enough data centers to use 100% of the station’s capacity.

We can build capacity as we build consumers. It’s all about balance.

I also don’t believe that we’re going to be building all of the 1200 proposed data centers in the US.

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