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Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

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Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#271

Post by Ekaros »

stephen_g wrote: post #224
andrepd wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and when it does that's it, forever. Because the EU """parliament""" cannot propose laws, meaning it cannot repeal existing laws either. It's like the IRA said to Thatcher: you have to be lucky every time, we just have to be lucky once.

For those who don't know how the EU works - the European Parliament (that can't introduce or repeal laws) is the actually voted in body, and the European Commission (who has the actual control) is appointed by member states but since it is several steps detached from democratic process, it (surprise surprise) often acts anti-democratically...

I am not sure if any political system does it democratically. That is have every single member of cabinet or equal to be voted in from popular open vote. As it should be in proper democracy.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#272

Post by shakna »

delusional wrote: post #258
rockskon wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no reason to believe it wouldn't eventually be used to generate leads as opposed to needing a warrant to sift through.

Again, I'm no expert, but I do believe the law would be what would stop you. It could be poorly written, but then we should just rewrite it.

Police, in many countries, have already been found to violate the laws protecting surveillance systems that already exist.

If a warrant doesn't stop them today, why do you think it will tomorrow?

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#273

Post by augment_me »

Gud wrote: post #194
anaisbetts wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire world realized that now that the Internet has killed off all of the third places / IRL meetings, and social media killed off the decentralized Internet, it's quite easy to fully control the discourse around any topic, since only a few social media organizations effectively decide what everyone sees (even if you're independent, Social Media decides which ideas/content gets traffic). Question is, how do we g…

By increasing the level of democracy and decentralizing the government. Generally the more democratic a country is, the less hostile the government is against the people, from my observations. If you decentralise, any damage will be localised and would affect fewer people.

What can a decentralized, democratic government do against foreign autocratic powers that can influence any election in WEEKS?

A part of the problem today is that there are massive autocratic powers that have the resources, means and channels to influence any democratic powers. Decentralization in this case means less unity in opinion, and more opportunity for foreign influence.

I dont see a way out of this, because essentially as a decentralized democracy, you are playing with your hands open to the whole world, and trusting that your decentralized people will filter out the noise/influence and make rational choices when they are open to any foreign influence.

This is why we are seeing EU go more authoritarian. There is (rightfully so given the average technological literacy), no trust in that the individual will be able to see through foreign influence. Control of the individual is the only short-term solution.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#274

Post by anthk »

p1dda wrote: post #261
afarah1 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for any legislation piece. A law that costs 100M people $1 and benefits 100 people with $1M. Would be, as you noted, costly to oppose, not worth the $1 nor the time. And at the same time, very profitable for the 100 to spend hundreds of thousands and great effort lobbying for. It's just the power structure of any representative legislature. "In vain do we fly to the many"...

The European Commission (EC) is particularly sinister in so many ways and not like any previously known modern democratic entity. The EC has been constantly pushing for less democracy, less transparency, more censorship for decades. All the while the horrible president von der Leyen makes billion dollar deals with Big Pharma in complete secrecy without any repercussions or oversight. Europe is doomed if we don't dest…

The EU it's good, little American/Russian spoiled kid. It's these kind of turds who want Chat Control whose give the EU a bad name.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#275

Post by terminalshort »

aesh2Xa1 wrote: post #238
Arainach wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible for people to know about every topic. That was true in Plato's day and is dramatically more true now. People defer to what someone on TV or Tiktok told them and have no time to look into facts or primary sources. Direct democracy would get you solutions that sound emotionally appealing but do not work. That or gridlock where you can't get 50% to agree on anything. If you ask people "do you want A, B,…

Representative systems vest political power into concentrated points of influence. The reps are often as uninformed as the citizens. The US just had some infamous legislation pass that representatives didn't even read, and publicly stated so. The system also makes reps uniquely vulnerable to targeted lobbying, corruption, regulatory capture, and threats. I find much to be faulty with opaque dealings with a few key in…

How does direct democracy mitigate the issue that the representative is uninformed and not even reading what they voted for?

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#276

Post by p1dda »

anthk wrote: post #274
p1dda wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The European Commission (EC) is particularly sinister in so many ways and not like any previously known modern democratic entity. The EC has been constantly pushing for less democracy, less transparency, more censorship for decades. All the while the horrible president von der Leyen makes billion dollar deals with Big Pharma in complete secrecy without any repercussions or oversight. Europe is doomed if we don't dest…

The EU it's good, little American/Russian spoiled kid. It's these kind of turds who want Chat Control whose give the EU a bad name.

LOL thanks for your great insight into this matter

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#277

Post by p1dda »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #95
afarah1 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for any legislation piece. A law that costs 100M people $1 and benefits 100 people with $1M. Would be, as you noted, costly to oppose, not worth the $1 nor the time. And at the same time, very profitable for the 100 to spend hundreds of thousands and great effort lobbying for. It's just the power structure of any representative legislature. "In vain do we fly to the many"...

Plato's "republic" (one of the worst books in human history) and every justification in that book and every book citing it is trotted out to argue for how bad direct democracy is. Now we act like it's not good because Athens got its shit pushed in by Sparta during the Peloponnesian war. Direct democracy is good. One person one vote, on all legislation, actually could work. We haven't even tried at scale in thousands…

I completely agree about the excellence of Direct Democracy (DD). One of the most common arguments against DD is that: "people aren't smart enough or knowledgeable enough to make important decisions". My reply to this is: and current politicians are? Politicians obviously aren't smarter or more knowledgeable than the average citizen, they are more inclined to act in their own best interest rather than the public's best interest though. We get rid of the middlemen and we get rid of: corruption and the abuse of power. The Swiss are doing excellent with DD!

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#278

Post by Gud »

augment_me wrote: post #273
Gud wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By increasing the level of democracy and decentralizing the government. Generally the more democratic a country is, the less hostile the government is against the people, from my observations. If you decentralise, any damage will be localised and would affect fewer people.

What can a decentralized, democratic government do against foreign autocratic powers that can influence any election in WEEKS? A part of the problem today is that there are massive autocratic powers that have the resources, means and channels to influence any democratic powers. Decentralization in this case means less unity in opinion, and more opportunity for foreign influence. I dont see a way out of this, because…

It’s how the country I live in, Switzerland, is organised, one of the most prosperous places on earth.

https://freedomhouse.org/country/switzerland

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#279

Post by anthk »

p1dda wrote: post #276
anthk wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU it's good, little American/Russian spoiled kid. It's these kind of turds who want Chat Control whose give the EU a bad name.

LOL thanks for your great insight into this matter

I'm from Spain; before joining the European Economic Community (pre UE entity) in 1986 our country except for the main cities sucked a lot, it was behind France in lots of terms. By 1992 the gap went almost to /dev/null.

So, I you can be pro EU and denounce these STASI like mafias, you know.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#280

Post by trallnag »

smcin wrote: post #222

'ChatControl' = proposed EU-wide framework for detecting and reporting text keywords, images, and videos in all digital private communications, nominally to prevent CSAM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_to_Prevent_and_Comb...

I don't like pizza and hot dogs anyway
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