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James Webb Space Telescope reveals that most galaxies rotate clockwise

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: James Webb Space Telescope reveals that most galaxies rotate clockwise

#271
post #224
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just occured to me that "rotation direction" is a pretty coarse measurement. Actually, you could look at the angle of a galaxy relative to ours, where (let's say) 0° is viewed exactly from "above" (rotating clockwise), 180° is viewed exactly from "below" (rotating counterclockwise), 90°/270° is viewed side-on etc. How about some stats based on this parameter?

What does "above" or "below" even mean in the context of something without a top or bottom? Or are you defining "above" to mean "the vantage point from which the galaxy appears to be rotating in the direction of earth clocks" for the purpose of this question?

Yes, I was arbitrarily defining the side that rotates clockwise as "top" and the other side as "bottom".

Re: James Webb Space Telescope reveals that most galaxies rotate clockwise

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are misunderstanding the point being made: The _only_ random chance that is part of current models is "quantum uncertainty at big bang time" and we can give upper bounds for the variations that can be explained from that. So what's really being said here is "We found a significantly larger discrepancy between Milkyway-corotating galaxies and Milkyway-counterrotating galaxies than can be explained by ~init…

That doesn’t make sense, they can’t be assumed to have behaved like ideal gasses, thus turbulence alone can cause significant uncertainties. Let alone all other possibilities combined.

I don't get it, why did you ask for clarifications about why this was not expected if you're just going to be adamant it should have been expected?

Is it really your honest position that everyone has been doing cosmology wrong and you would have known better?

Re: James Webb Space Telescope reveals that most galaxies rotate clockwise

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's arbitrary, but that's fine. The important part would be any asymmetry. The Big Bang implies that there shouldn't be one.

Just to be clear, it's not fine at all in any "this is a fine physical theory". A statistically unlikely arrangement of cosmic objects relative to earth only - earth in particular, violates not just the properties of the big bang but "the cosmological principle" and common sense. It's a garbage theory, a headline that makes a math person just have a "how stupid do they expect the average person to be" reaction.

?? he's saying "it's fine" if it's defined as "clockwise" arbitrarily.

Re: James Webb Space Telescope reveals that most galaxies rotate clockwise

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mm, I didn't correctly interpret their comment. You're absolutely correct.

Yeah. I could've worded it better. By "ejections" I meant how, when two planets/moon sized masses collide, rocks shoot out into space. But because black holes have so much gravitational pull, everything theoretically just falls in.

When two black holes collide, gravitational radiation shoots out into space. The origin of the radiation is in the dynamical spacetime outside each black hole's horizon, however. This is what the gravitational wave detectors operated by LIGO, Virgo, KAGRA, and others look for.

Similarly, the dynamical spacetime around a black hole not near any other black hole can couple with quantum fields -- even fields in a no-particle "vacuum" state as measured by an observer, for example one in orbit around the black hole -- with the result that Hawking radiation is produced.

Both gravitational radiation and Hawking radiation carry away energy (in the sense of ability to do work, per the "sticky bead" argument) from the environment immediately around a black hole. This in turn means that the horizon radius will be less than it could be.

So as a Hawking-radiating isolated black hole will tend to shrink (if it's not fed by hotter cosmic microwave background radiation, for example), the mass of a post-merger binary black hole will be less than the sum of the unmerged binary.

Just because things can't cross from the inside of a black hole horizon to the outside doesn't mean the horizon is always the same -- the horizon can grow and shrink dynamically when interacting with other self-gravitating bodies, with matter like dust or starlight, or with "the quantum vacuum".

Re: James Webb Space Telescope reveals that most galaxies rotate clockwise

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this getting into questions like "Where did the singularity come from?" and "What came before the singularity?". We don't have a way to answer these kinds of questions.

My point is that it's not much helpful to say, "galaxies spin a certain way because the universe spins", because it shifts the problem without actually answering the "why". "Turtles all the way down" is a saying about such infinite regress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down And yes, I'm familiar with Dawkins' famous retort when someone asked how magnets repel things.

> And yes, I'm familiar with Dawkins' famous retort when someone asked how magnets repel things.

I'm not. I was unable to substantiate that anyone named Dawkins, Richard or otherwise, made or is popularly associated with a comment about magnets. What was the retort?

Re: James Webb Space Telescope reveals that most galaxies rotate clockwise

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's arbitrary, but that's fine. The important part would be any asymmetry. The Big Bang implies that there shouldn't be one.

Just to be clear, it's not fine at all in any "this is a fine physical theory". A statistically unlikely arrangement of cosmic objects relative to earth only - earth in particular, violates not just the properties of the big bang but "the cosmological principle" and common sense. It's a garbage theory, a headline that makes a math person just have a "how stupid do they expect the average person to be" reaction.

No, I don't think you have this right. There was no physical theory claimed, just a very surprising observation (though of course it turns out to be bogus). If it were true it would require an incredible explanation, but that's not at all the same as just proposing an outlandish theory with no motivation.

If you take the approach you describe, I think you'd have incorrectly dismissed the observation that distant continents look as if they could fit together like jigsaw pieces, as it implied the impossible theory of continental drift. Isn't that just the same sort of outlandish, clearly ridiculous observation as "there's an asymmetry in the way galaxies rotate"? Except of course that one observation is correct, and the other isn't. You can falsify it just by checking the observation, rather than dismissing it out of hand as impossible.

Edit to add: maybe a better comparison would be to the violation of parity conservation in the weak force, as proposed by Yang and Lee, although I just learned from wikipedia that the actual experiment was performed by Wu. If you think that isn't a valid analogy, I'd be really interested to learn why.

Re: James Webb Space Telescope reveals that most galaxies rotate clockwise

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the matter-antimatter ratio, you would not expect 50:50, or would you? Because 50:50 would be a highly unstable system? In any case, you would expect that unstable states would be highly unlikely, and it would converge into a stable state. I'm not sure about the other examples. But maybe it's a similar reason that it is not a 50:50 ratio?

Not a physicist, but here is my understanding of the cosmology physics: High energy can spontaneously form matter antimatter pairs. In the early universe, the heat of the universe was very high, so this was common, constantly happening. The problem as always if fine tuning. If the early universe was 60-40, that would be understandable. If the early universe was precisely 50-50, that’s fine too. But the universe was 5…

Not a physicist either but pair production also occurs in "non extreme" conditions and is still quite common.

If find this question fascinating. Matter can only ever exist with respective anti-matter. Question is where has all the antimatter gone? Are there processes were it does indeed behave different from matter? So where is it? Since a photon and antiphoton are the same and do not absorb each other, we should be able to see it, shouldn't we?

I still want to believe in the antimatter universe where there is some evil twin of mine.

Re: James Webb Space Telescope reveals that most galaxies rotate clockwise

#279

So do the galaxies rotate clockwise, or did we make clocks that rotate in the direction the galaxies choose? :)

Sundials are really really cool, and the shadow sweeps in the clockwise direction at mid-latitudes in the northern hemisphere, but

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial#In_the_Southern_Hemisp...

So "clockwise" is because the Earth's axis of rotation about itself is not too far from perpendicular to its orbital plane of rotation around the sun, and because the Earth rotates counter-clockwise from the perspective of someone hovering above the planet's north pole. This is the right-hand rule.

Earth's axis of rotation (and orbital plane) is fairly well aligned with most of the round bodies in the solar system, except notably for oddball tilted Uranus and anti-aligned Venus (and the pretty different orbital planes of the minor planets like Pluto and Eris).

The sun's north pole (following the right-hand rule) and south pole do not point to anywhere particular in the galaxy, and its axis of rotation is highly tilted with respect to the axis through the central bulge of the Milky Way. A nice diagram that seems to have originated from the European Southern Observatory: https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/motion-of-earth-an...>

Most disc-like structures we've found tend to be randomly oriented compared to each respective host galaxy's polar axis.

For spiral galaxy rotations we have much better data from mostly edge-on views because we can measure the doppler shifts of molecular clouds at their margins; the advancing side will be less red-shifted than the trailing side. Spectral lines also broaden with the magnitude of rotation. AFAIK there is nothing at all unexpected about the distribution of trailing vs leading edges on our sky; the mystery is in the magnitude of the rotation of these outer gas clouds compared to things like their galaxy's apparent optical brightness or other markers of mass.

Also fun is that for elliptical galaxies, these gas clouds don't rotate around the equatorial bulge of those that have them. They instead tend to move mostly radially deeper and shallower within their host galaxy.

So if galaxies don't choose the rotation of their internal components like star systems or radio-loud objects like pulsars and relativistic-jet-equipped black holes, why (accepting for the sake of this argument that this garbage paper is correct about there being a bias in face-on spiral galaxies) would a distant galaxy affect us more than our own?

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