New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars • Hacker News Board

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#271

Post by caf » Thu, May 02, 2024, 3:22 AM UTC

defrost wrote: post #269

kmeisthax wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A significant chunk of the adult male population of Nazi Germany was involved with the genocide. Hitler made sure there was blood on as many German hands as possible. In retrospect the Allies were extremely lenient [0] on Germany and Japan and they probably could have punished them way, way worse. As for Allied war crimes, many of those were only criminalized after-the-fact. For example, the justification for nuking…

The justification at the time for nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was field testing two different novel bomb designs .. the urgency came from Germany's surrender and unavailability to use as a test bed and from the rapid depletion of pristine targets in Japan. The H&N bombings followed close on the heels of bombing 72 other cities (including Tokyo) as part of an ongoing HE + incendiary campaign with list of targets. Th…

Yes, and it's not even like there was a prior plan to use two bombs and see what happened - the military was fully planning to continue the atomic bombings as the cores became available (the third expected to be available by late August). It was only Truman intervening that stopped it at two.

It seems, unsurprisingly, that the military didn't really see the atomic bombs as anything other than a really big bomb - it was only later that they came to be seen as something qualitatively different, and "a bomb so big it is war-ending" is really only something you can know in hindsight.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#272

Post by ahazred8ta » Thu, May 02, 2024, 3:26 AM UTC

obfuscator wrote: post #193

dylan604 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "They are already here among us – they just call themselves Hungarians." Do Germans also have jokes like "how many Hungarians does it take to screw in a light bulb"?

Those exist here at the expense of different peoples, depending where you are in Germany. Most popular, from what I can tell, are East Frisians, but that has to do with a comedian who made a lot of those jokes (Otto Waalkes).

East Frisian jokes on WP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Frisian_jokes

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#273

Post by roenxi » Thu, May 02, 2024, 3:39 AM UTC

throwawaycities wrote: post #263

roenxi wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see him saying that, so probably not. But being a rocket scientist during a war isn't a war crime either. Looking at Wikipedia there seems to be something going on with Braun's involvement in forced labour and war prisoners. I don't see an outline of what the problem is; maybe there is something serious but if there is a problem Wikipedia doesn't seem to detail it. If building horrible weapons is a war crime…

>But being a rocket scientist during a war isn't a war crime either. How familiar are you with jus ad bellum and jus en bello? Most legal scholars conclude German use of force against the UK was a violation of jus ad bellum and the indiscriminate nature of V-1 and V-2 rockets including their use against civilians was a violation of jus en bello. The Nuremberg Trials were primarily focused on prosecuting individuals w…

> How familiar are you with jus ad bellum and jus en bello?

Yeah they're terms of art. When US or British people use them they mean that aggression by English speakers is appropriate (really we should characterise any aggression as fundamentally defensive in nature) but aggression by people using barbarian tongues is inappropriate (if it damages the commercial interests of English speakers it might be better termed an affront against the divine nature of things). There are some complexities depending on trade agreements and current military alliances.

For example you can see strong defensive plays by the US in Afghanistan, Iraq or elsewhere in the middle east. But then you have examples of aggression by the USSR back in the day in the same countries which was largely unprovoked.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#274

Post by keepamovin » Thu, May 02, 2024, 3:42 AM UTC

divbzero wrote: post #267

keepamovin wrote: post #264

I think we can't be certain of the ages of the planets in our solar system. It's based on different things but there's recent uncertainty about the age of the universe, possibly by a factor of two. It's possible the planets in our system are older than we think. Is it also possible they're younger? I'm not an expert on it.

> there’s recent uncertainty about the age of the universe, possibly by a factor of two Do you have a reference for this? Interesting if potentially true.

Sure, it's from last year. Surprised you missed it, but no worries! :)

- https://phys.org/news/2023-07-age-universe-billion-years-pre...

- https://scitechdaily.com/cosmic-paradigm-shift-new-research-...

- https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/could-age-universe-be-twice...

- https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/07/230711133118.h...

- https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/age-of-universe-researc...

The science is not settled. But that's the point, science never is. Uncertainty for sure haha! :)

I think the main point is the older it is, the less certain we can be especially with our current limitations. ha :)

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#275

Post by CardenB » Thu, May 02, 2024, 4:25 AM UTC

knighthack wrote: post #235

throw4847285 wrote: post #166

Sometimes I wonder if Sci-fi has done more harm than good. It provides conclusions that people so badly want to prove true that they will look for any evidence, however meager, to bolster their arguments. Maybe there was life on Mars, but the main motivation to believe that right now is that many people have read about it in fantasy books. Much more devastatingly, Sci-fi has driven what technology people develop, and…

> "...It provides conclusions that people so badly want to prove true that they will look for any evidence, however meager, to bolster their arguments." You argue from the position that Martians 'must not be real'. Why is your conclusion any better than those who argue that Martians could be real? Science works upon evidence. If so: a) there is some evidence to support the existence of prior life on Mars; b) it is no…

you are shifting the burden of proof and failing to make a good argument here.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#276

Post by TheVespasian » Thu, May 02, 2024, 4:39 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #251

TheVespasian wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nazism and Fascism's brands of ultra rightwing ideology still looms large in part of the world. Not as distinct from basic impulses we can detect in all periods. These terms we use (rightwing, fascist) are new terms for ancient political dispositions. If I describe someone as imperialist, patriarchal, sexist, antisemitic, and racist, am I more likely to be talking about the Nazis, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Abb…

> Not as distinct from basic impulses we can detect in all periods I disagree. Nazism and Fascism are largely influential today but Caesar isn't. > My understanding of human psychology does not incline me to think this is a remotely successful strategy. I cannot vouch for your understanding. I do know Nazism and Fascism must be loudly denounced whenever found. They must not be allowed to fester in the darkness.

> Nazism and Fascism are largely influential today but Caesar isn't.

Sorry, but this is when I just have to tune out. It's like when people say, "America has no culture," or something similar.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#277

Post by Grimblewald » Thu, May 02, 2024, 4:42 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #9

Maybe we are about to discover that we came to Earth after messing up Mars.

I genuinely believe this, despite the lack of evidence (largely because it is a fun belief if sobering to hold). You can push the concept way further still, for example we had a technocratic elite last time as well, and they sent us peasants to earth first to colonize it. Genetics wasn't as well developed last time and for some fluke inbreeding wasn't known about, and so, the technocratic elite ended up inbred AF as they orbited earth. They continue to come down and abduct humans from time to time to gather genetic material to bolster their own failing gene pools while also measuring terrestrial qualities to check if it is time to land and lay claim to the peasantry once more, except this time there is a new landed elite that they'll have to fight it out with in one way or another.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#278

Post by throwaway173738 » Thu, May 02, 2024, 5:22 AM UTC

dotnet00 wrote: post #133

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like? You're coming across as very dismissive for no reason.

There are meteorites on Earth which very likely originated from Mars. They're believed to have been launched into space by an impact, eventually finding their way onto Earth. If we're looking for the most realistic options for panspermia to have occurred, they'd be due to a natural event of this sort.

It’s very much like how islands in the sea are colonized by life. Some event causes a blob of living creatures to enter the sea on a raft and they drift until they make landfall somewhere else. Sometimes they survive long enough in the new place to reproduce.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#279

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 02, 2024, 5:22 AM UTC

adastra22 wrote: post #37

NegativeLatency wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then how did life get on mars?

Mars had 3/4 billion more years to develop, compared with the Earth. Mars formed first, and cooled first due to its smaller size. One of the outstanding problems in astrobiology I mention is that the Earth was inhospitable until 3.8Gya, and the oldest fossils of presumably DNA based life (since it matches existing life we can study) was 3.7Gya. Mars was hospitable ~4.5Gya. So either life emerged IMMEDIATELY on Earth…

[deleted]

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#280

Post by somenameforme » Thu, May 02, 2024, 6:02 AM UTC

kaashif wrote: post #242

somenameforme wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other posts answered, but only if you already know the answer. The rovers we've used on Mars have done an extremely superficial job of scouring the planet. The most recent rover Perseverance has, to my knowledge, the most capable drill with a max depth of 2.4 inches. [1] And the drill is used extremely sparingly because it tends to break quickly, as it did on Curiosity. And of course it can only drill, not excavate/c…

I am imagining an astronaut digging with a shovel and 2.5 inches below the surface are just dinosaur skeletons and stuff. Or something even more fantastical.

Exactly. There's absolutely no reason to think that advanced life did not exist on Mars except for the lack of evidence. That sounds funny, but the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially in a case like this where the planet has been probably sterilized on a time frame of potentially billions of years.

The Great Pyramid of Giza is a massive and extremely hardy structure that will outlast all modern buildings. Yet it's substantially deteriorating after less than 5,000 years, and it will eventually just completely disintegrate, absent the already ongoing preservation/restoration efforts. It might take 20,000 years, maybe a million. A quick search on the internet suggests nobody really knows, other than that it will happen. And now we're talking about time frames of billions of years. So what would a sterilized, perpetually radiated, atmosphere free Earth over billions of years look like, paired with never-ending massive dust storms (as on Mars)? Well, probably not especially unlike Mars does today. But oh what treasures would await you far below the surface!

I don't necessarily think anything does await us, but who knows? It's a tantalizing possibility that we won't be able to dismiss until we have humans on Mars. It's vaguely analogous to the early observations of 'canals' on Mars [1] whose explanation ranged from running water to active geoengineering from another advanced species on the planet. Their exact meaning was debated all the way into the mid 20th century, until we finally were able to get probes that could take 'high res' photos of the surface that showed they were definitely just optical illusions. A disappointing discovery, but nonetheless emphasizing that the importance of actually testing things instead of just relying on indirect instrumentation/data of this era or that.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_canals