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Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

research.mozilla.org

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Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#271

Post by lostmsu »

hilbert42 wrote: post #61

When the fuck is this going to stop! Microsoft lost this monopolizing tactic in a court case decades ago. It seems either no one remembers this fact or that Microsoft hopes it's so. Regulators will you please damn-well regulate. In simple English, do your fucking job.

Perhaps the monopoly law should be changed to adapt to multiple scales.

E.g. you shouldn't be able to use product 1 that has 100Y market in A to create any advantage for product 2 in market B if you know user uses competitor in B who's market in B is For example if you have 2B market in OS you should not be allowed to use OS to advertise your own browser to user who uses another browser with under 200M users.

That would also cover Apple exerting power over 50,000 installation apps.

And by "know" here I mean that if you know user is not using your product yet, you must check the condition or not be allowed to use the advantage (e.g. either you should see Chrome ads in Chrome, or Google cant advertise Chrome to Edge users).

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#272

Post by kalleboo »

sccxy wrote: post #102
voltaireodactyl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for the record, you can absolutely change the default search engine in Safari and Firefox. I use kagi in both, so bangs are supported everywhere.

Firefox for iOS supports keyword and %s url scheme for search engines. I am not sure why extensions are needed in desktop. You can change default search engine, but you cannot add extra search engines in Safari without building your own extension (and paying apple for it)

> you cannot add extra search engines in Safari without building your own extension

Safari automatically detects search fields on websites and adds to the smart address bar. E.g. if I type "discmaster myst" Safari will suggest to search discmaster.textfiles.com for "myst". And that's something it automatically picked up. No plugins or configuration needed, users don't need to learn how HTTP queries work.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#273

Post by kalleboo »

doix wrote: post #53
gbxyz wrote: post #20

I kind of get the vibe that Mozilla is laying the groundworks for Microsoft vs Netscape Round II - or at least some kind of antitrust litigation.

I really wish they'd go after Apple and Safari. Safari is basically the modern day IE. Whenever I do anything slightly weird, I'm fairly confident it works in chrome/Firefox and almost sure that it's broken in safari. The fact that you can't test on Safari without osx is insane. Some bugs can be reproduced in other WebKit browsers (I test with epiphany) but some are safari only. Not to mention the fact that Safari is…

Once Chrome is allowed on iOS, then Firefox is dead. When they're no longer forced to test in a second browser by management, all the web devs will just check for a recent Chrome user agent and if it's not there they just say "install chrome to use this site", and we're back in the IE days. And then Google can stop paying Mozilla for search field defaults and then all of Mozilla's income is gone.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#274

Post by sccxy »

morsch wrote: post #152
sccxy wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, it is possible. But firefox UX is the greatest. You must use bookmarks to config search. And now I have many nonsense bookmarks because I want to use them as search

The UI is weird, that said, the feature goes back 20 years, see e.g. http://johnbokma.com/firefox/keymarks-explained/comments.htm... I wonder if it existed all the way back in a version of Netscape Navigator? On Firefox Android, you can also just go to into settings, search, manage search engines, + add search engine. So, basically, exactly where you would expect it. I think on desktop it's just as easy? Can't you ju…

> On Firefox Android, you can also just go to into settings, search, manage search engines, + add search engine. So, basically, exactly where you would expect it.

I would expect same in Desktop also. But in Desktop you have to add bookmarks to manage extra search settings.

If Mozilla is pissing other browsers all the time then why they do not fix it. Googles money does not allow easier search settings?

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#275

Post by ruszki »

pyrophane wrote: post #180

I've been trying Edge lately because I wanted to see if its "efficiency mode" would produce any noticeable difference in the battery life I experienced on my laptop. They've really made it almost impossible to use as a privacy-respecting browser that lets you pick your search engine. There are a very large number of "on by default" settings that I had to change to turn of things like "Microsoft Rewards" and "creator…

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/privacy-whi...

I’m 100% sure that they figure out features to get your data, and not the other way around.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#276

Post by 6c696e7578 »

deadlydose wrote: post #192
6c696e7578 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? There's two programs I know of that will take focus and they're both authentication prompts. The sort of thing that cranks my handle on Windows were mostly from the browser and almost anything else. With XFCE though, I'm quite happy with the level of focus stealing, things that seem to be justifiable are at the right level, like authentication prompts. Out of interest, what are the things that take focus for…

Long time XFCE user here. Steam will absolutely steal focus. I usually start Steam and then move over to something else like the terminal or web browser and multiple times during Steam's startup it will steal focus. I just want it to start up in the background. Aside from that, I agree focus stealing isn't a huge deal in XFCE. (XFCE 4.18, Debian trixie/testing)

Now you mention it, my kid has sometimes had problems with Steam where it has started a game and we can't easily leave the game. I presumed though that was a deliberate design so that your game has focus as that's the thing that's most interactive. Usually a pkill -f is needed.

I've not noticed focus stealing outside of Steam. What is steam made from, it seems very browserish.

This topic is causing some self-reflection and wonder if I am the peculiar one who does different things and just not bumping into it, I mainly work from xterm, screen, mutt, vim and a lot of time in firefox. Perhaps this combination just doesn't start things that request focus, but when in MS Windows I noticed it a lot.

You're right about steam, but now I'm on a path of wondering...

This topic confirms that focus stealing is a thing in XFCE, I have some research to do!

https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=14461

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#277

Post by doix »

kalleboo wrote: post #273
doix wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish they'd go after Apple and Safari. Safari is basically the modern day IE. Whenever I do anything slightly weird, I'm fairly confident it works in chrome/Firefox and almost sure that it's broken in safari. The fact that you can't test on Safari without osx is insane. Some bugs can be reproduced in other WebKit browsers (I test with epiphany) but some are safari only. Not to mention the fact that Safari is…

Once Chrome is allowed on iOS, then Firefox is dead. When they're no longer forced to test in a second browser by management, all the web devs will just check for a recent Chrome user agent and if it's not there they just say "install chrome to use this site", and we're back in the IE days. And then Google can stop paying Mozilla for search field defaults and then all of Mozilla's income is gone.

I've seen that sentiment a lot, I don't buy it. Google pays for Firefox so they can claim they are not a monopoly.

I'm hopeful that if people have a choice on iOS, then Apple would invest more on their browser.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#278

Post by jstarfish »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #257
ARandomerDude wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always think this, then remember I also like sound, Bluetooth, and low-power sleep. Maybe 2025 will be the year of the Linux desktop.

Probably twice a day I accidentally bring up the emoji keyboard. Macos makes me grow wearier with each update. Eventually a straw will break this camels back.

Or you'll stop resisting and start communicating using only emojis.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#279

Post by themoonisachees »

ametrau wrote: post #225
YPPH wrote: post #26

Windows just keeps getting weirder. There's this regrettable dichotomy between (1) a rock solid OS core with great features like Hyper-V, PowerShell and exceptional back-compat, and (2) a crap, sluggish, inconsistent UI slapped on top, laden with ads, "Rewards" Points and tracking.

Powershit is a good thing? Here’s a genus idea, put an object oriented language in the terminal .

PowerShell isn't bad. It's a paradigm shift, but the concept and execution are god (not great, but good). I recommend you seriously give it a chance, it's probably one of the only Microsoft things I miss on Linux (other commenters, i'm aware I can use PS as a Linux shell, but that requires trusting Microsoft to keep it good.)

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#280

Post by hilbert42 »

cjblomqvist wrote: post #232
hilbert42 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not the same situation as back then. 1. They don't have the same browser market share at all." That's essentially irrelevant because (a) Microsoft complied with the Court's ruling and allowed other browsers to be installed without hindrance, that's not the situation now; (b) you're painting a picture as if Microsoft was disadvantaged by the situation now and thus it's unfair to impose such restrictions again th…

I'm not arguing whether Microsoft's behavior is good or bad (that's a long, subjective, discussion) - I'm arguing that from a legal point of view it's not clear cut that it's the same situation, as was suggested. Company size is for example not considered (generally anyway) as relevant for whether a company has a monopoly/market dominance or not. This seems to be forgotten, and it seems few cares about why the defini…

"I'm arguing that from a legal point of view it's not clear cut that it's the same situation, as was suggested"

Sorting out technicalities is the job of regulators and government. It shouldn't matter a damn if the situation is different. What's common and ongoing is that Microsoft's monopolistic practices are still in place and small and medium businesses are still being hurt, and users are still being taken advantage of.

We know what needs to be done to reign in Big Tech. If current laws aren't strong enough then it's Government's job to legislate to fix and strengthen them. It has yet to do that, and that it hasn't is the key problem.

What's needed is new law that makes employees just as responsible as the corporation would be, they, after all, are the ones who make the decisions.

If those who work for Big Tech knew their actions could easily land them in the slammer then we'd have a revolution in good behavior overnight.

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