Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A third of North America’s birds have vanished

nautil.us

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 901 posts

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#271

Post by nucleardog »

thebigjewbowski wrote: post #249
nemo wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah a lot of inhabitants of a healthy habitat are labeled culturally as "pests" and "pest control" does a lot of damage to native plants, insects, birds, and other wildlife. I go out identifying insects under my porch lights or out in the yard submitting iNaturalist observations. There' an amazing, diverse natural world out there that can be accessible in a local yard that's a native habitat. I'm up to 400 species a…

> But in reality there's a lot of people who see any snake, insect, or arachnid, and respond with "kill it with fire." Did you have a natural (or learned) revulsion for bugs? If so, how did you get over it? I’ve gotten over mice completely, never felt right killing one in the first place. I’ve been trying to make peace with bugs; I unplugged my mosquito zappers last summer shortly after getting them when I realized t…

> I wish they would just stay away from me and I’d happily respond in kind :’( I mean, that’s kinda the line I draw and live with.

Anything in the house is fair game. I don’t feel good about it, but mice, insects, or anything else that’s in my living space has to go. I’ll do what I need to to keep my living space mine.

Anything outside… that’s shared space. As much as I can I try and co-exist. I see the bugs as much a part of the nature I appreciate as the bunnies, the deer, the turkeys, the foxes, the ducks, and everything else. None of it exists without the rest. Anything that isn’t an existential threat to myself or my property I leave alone. If I can’t personally handle them right now, I can always go back in the house.

Where I can, I try and balance my use of the space with everything else. I appreciate the nature where I live, so I only do what’s necessary to make it livable for me. I mow only enough space around the house for us to use. I’ve been working on evicting some groundhogs because they’re trying to turn the ground under my garage into swiss cheese. I get rid of poison ivy when it encroaches in our space but we don’t “weed”. When the mosquitos got so bad we were scared to open a door I did spray some pesticide immediately around our house, but made sure to keep the space I sprayed well mowed to discourage the bees from coming here and getting caught in the crossfire.

I guess it’s just a small mindset shift—I still want the bugs to stay away from me, but I can’t be pissed about bugs when I wander into their home any more than I could wander in to a bear’s den and be annoyed that a bear attacked me.

Oh, except ticks. Fuck ticks. Those are kill on sight.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#272

Post by lamontcg »

23B1 wrote: post #35

One thing I dislike the most about these problems – and the information/media/activism around them – is the "solutioning". Yes, we should recycle and reduce carbon emissions and learn to live in a more integrated fashion with earth. But the problem is so diffuse and requires substantive work against powerful forces (government, business, apathy). What I'd like to see more of, when presented with these sorts of proble…

> All too often the "solutioning" defaults to the highest concentration of power, e.g. government/regulation – but that obviously isn't working at the speed it has to, and I suspect its because it's very easy to say "they should/we should" instead if "I will/we will".

Other way around really.

"The hardest hit were grassland birds, down by more than 50 percent, mostly due to the expansion of farms that turn a varied landscape into acres of neat, plowed rows."

You're not going to do anything about that individually.

You could opt out of the whole system and grow your own food, but that isn't viable as a solution across the entire population. It would take literally everyone doing that and most people simply will not.

And focusing on the individual as the solution lets corporations and governments off of the hook. We've been trying to "reduce, reuse, recycle" our way out the problem at a local level and it isn't remotely sufficient.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#273

Post by uoaei »

godelski wrote: post #140
23B1 wrote: post #35

One thing I dislike the most about these problems – and the information/media/activism around them – is the "solutioning". Yes, we should recycle and reduce carbon emissions and learn to live in a more integrated fashion with earth. But the problem is so diffuse and requires substantive work against powerful forces (government, business, apathy). What I'd like to see more of, when presented with these sorts of proble…

> viable solutions proposed that can be implemented bottom-up Don't have outdoor cats: https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/ From the cited source: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 > We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings sugge…

From the quote you cited, it sounds like we need to manage strays much more so than owned cats. Considering that indoor/outdoor cats are indoors some of the time, we would assume that owned cats are not really a priority here.

30-90 birds/cat/year seems extraordinarily high when considering the behavior of all the cats I know who spend time outside.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#274

Post by uoaei »

travisporter wrote: post #246
paulcole wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I would argue dishwashers are demonstrably more efficient than hand washing dishes Yeah my argument is that this is nonsense. Just turn the tap off often when you’re scrubbing the dishes (use the water for rinsing) and it should be obvious that you’re using less water — particularly when you take into account the fact that a dishwasher uses 4 gallons of water no matter how many dishes are in it. Under ideal cond…

The average faucet puts out about 2 gallons per min. Even if i turn off the faucet between scrubbing it would take more than two mins of the faucet on for me. I do agree that it me use more dishes so there’s that.

You turn the faucet on at full blast every time you open it? I let out enough to rinse, but you do most of the mixing of soap and water for rinsing mechanically rather than just trying to blast it away with a high-pressure water stream.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#275

Post by guerrilla »

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #253
flagrant_taco wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The planet will bounce back one way or another, short of a global nuclear war I don't see how we can do more damage than the asteroid that took out the dinausaurs. Humans just may not be here to enjoy it if we can't get out of the way and stop consuming natural resources for the sake Of GDP growth.

Right, no one cares about the planet, and rightfully so. The planet will be fine. It's humankind that's at stake.

And all the ecosystems and species we depend on*

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#276

Post by godelski »

uoaei wrote: post #273
godelski wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> viable solutions proposed that can be implemented bottom-up Don't have outdoor cats: https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/ From the cited source: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 > We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings sugge…

From the quote you cited, it sounds like we need to manage strays much more so than owned cats. Considering that indoor/outdoor cats are indoors some of the time, we would assume that owned cats are not really a priority here. 30-90 birds/cat/year seems extraordinarily high when considering the behavior of all the cats I know who spend time outside.

Well cats are definitely highly in-homogeneous hunters and some do A LOT and others very little. I'm sure the high end of that number is counting strays but I've known cats to grab a bird a few times a week. The thing is that many cats aren't showing you their spoils. Also, remember that cats sleep most of the day and their hunting is primarily done at limited hours. Though (indoor/)outdoor cats tend to be more active. You're probably not going to meet these cats though unless you've been to a rural area. Barn cats tend to be pretty effective predators. If you're in a bigger city, well there's not going to be as many birds (less opportunities) and you're probably less likely to see the spoils as if you have an adverse reaction one time then they won't show you again. They're just bringing back home a toy, not a meal.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#277

Post by uoaei »

RecycledEle wrote: post #204
nyolfen wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as far as i can tell, every part of this comment is fabricated. grackles are not invasive in texas, nor have they driven other birds to near-extinction, neither were they brought in by hitchcock, neither was the film produced in texas. where did you get this idea?

This is common knowledge where I live (in Texas.) Hollywood studios have a lot of power to change the "facts" that are on the Internet, and to shove truth down the Memory Hole.

You're either a clueless bot or just gullible as all hell.

You can visit the filming locations on the Sonoma Coast in California. I have, quite recently actually. You can verify for yourself they are the same places by comparing movie stills to real life buildings and geography. That is, if you have eyes and legs, of course.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#278

Post by godelski »

ribosometronome wrote: post #225
paulcole wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a bunch of statistics that just sound like nonsense and get repeated on the internet constantly. On the Mt. Rushmore of this list is the cats killing billions of birds a year. Another one is how efficient dishwashers are compared to hand washing dishes.

Repeated? They've cited their source. Why take issue with it like it's a whispered rumor rather than a paper with specificity you can disagree with?

I can totally accept the paper being wrong, but yeah this is how I feel. Fine to reject the claim, but if it's the word of a random commenter saying "trust me bro" vs that of researchers who published in nature and put all their evidence out there for everyone to see... I'm going with the latter (I'd even go with that were it not published).

Like at least make some critique about the study instead of: claims bullshit, refuses to elaborate, leaves.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#279

Post by Red_Tarsius »

23B1 wrote: post #35

One thing I dislike the most about these problems – and the information/media/activism around them – is the "solutioning". Yes, we should recycle and reduce carbon emissions and learn to live in a more integrated fashion with earth. But the problem is so diffuse and requires substantive work against powerful forces (government, business, apathy). What I'd like to see more of, when presented with these sorts of proble…

Individual solutions are mostly a fantasy. It's what we tell ourselves because the real solutions are fundamentally at odds with democracy and freedom. A few exceptions aside, people have never voted for a lower quality of life and personal degrowth. Instead, we prefer to slice and shift the blame around until no one is really responsible anymore. Your vision hangs on some sort of mass enlightenment that's just not going to happen. How many tragedies of the commons have been solved this way irl? Imagine being a fisherman in a Chinese trawler off the coast of West Africa. You could decide to stop overfishing. What then? You'll get fired and replaced by someone more desperate than you. The real world is a lot more complicated that "building a bird-friendly yard".

>All too often the "solutioning" defaults to the highest concentration of power, e.g. government/regulation – but that obviously isn't working at the speed it has to, and I suspect its because it's very easy to say "they should/we should" instead if "I will/we will".

That's the entire point of having concentration of power though. The decision makers can coordinate and manage things in ways the individual cannot. That alone gives them the responsibility to seek out a solution for worldwide issues. The lone individual is bound to follow basic instincts, rule of law and economic opportunities.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#280

Post by defrost »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #187
paulcole wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I would argue dishwashers are demonstrably more efficient than hand washing dishes Yeah my argument is that this is nonsense. Just turn the tap off often when you’re scrubbing the dishes (use the water for rinsing) and it should be obvious that you’re using less water — particularly when you take into account the fact that a dishwasher uses 4 gallons of water no matter how many dishes are in it. Under ideal cond…

I've measured my (previously owned dishwasher; don't have one at the moment), and compared it to handwashing in terms of water used. How did I measure it? I had the DW drain into a bucket. The DW won hands down. I also learnt to wash dishes without the water running when I was a kid. Yes, the proviso that you should only run it when it is full is important, but I assumed everyone knew that.

The other twist on water 'waste' is where does it go afterwards for recovery?

Cities often have systems, we're in rural Australia and are water conscious- as far as dish and clothes washing go that's grey water discharge which goes onto a near house mulch pit for household rottables and garden waste, the water that reaches the pit bottom hits a crushed stone bed with slotted pipe that drains water to above the vegetable garden and fruit trees (between the leach drains ) where it moves through the soil making tomatoes, potatoes, figs, oranges, lemons, grapefruit, etc.

No dishwasher, no tap running - but regardless of how much water we use in the kitchen none of that truly goes to waste, if we use more we just put less on the garden from the same source tanks (which are all level gauged).

Post reply on HN