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U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

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Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#271

Post by thealchemistdev »

metalspot wrote: post #93
photochemsyn wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Highly technical jobs in chemistry, physics, engineering, molecular biology require a certain kind of college education that involves a lot of hands-on experience in research labs. The traditional college coursework is not nearly as important as what amounts to vocational training working side-by-side with technicians, grad students, postdocs etc. There's no real way to acquire the needed experience without getting i…

> a private company just isn't going to invest the time and energy needed to train an apprentice not as long as they can force people to pay for it themselves and have the government and the tax payers subsidize it. universities were never meant to be vocational schools though, and they do a horrible job at it. to take computer science as an example: a 4 years bachelor degree only has about 500 hours of classroom ins…

That's precisely how the USAF train their network troops. Monday through Friday for 8 months, they take you from transistors to routers. After that, you're given 2 weeks to study and pass Sec+. Most people pass on the first try.

It's a far superior system.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#272

Post by liamN »

xyzzyz wrote: post #268
slg wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wild to suggest that the US's issue is not incarcerating enough people considering we are near the top of the global leaderboards on that front. Specifically in comparison to Germany, the incarceration rate is almost 8x higher in the US. You are also ignoring how the unprofessional nature of police contribute to the problem. Their behavior creates an adversarial relationship with the public. This has all sorts of neg…

> Wild to suggest that the US's issue is not incarcerating enough people considering we are near the top of the global leaderboards on that front. Specifically in comparison to Germany, the incarceration rate is almost 8x higher in the US. Yes, we are not incarcerating enough people, as clearly evidenced by the fact that we have a lot of repeat criminals, who commit a lot more crime than Germans. > You are also ignor…

I think that throwing more people in jail technically is a solution, but it's a very expensive one that does nothing to address the reason why people are committing crimes.

There are many factors at play, and I won't pretend to know them all, but most people turn to crime out of despiration. Throwing people in jail for more minor offences and giving longer sentences will not make repeat offenders less desperate. Not to mention the fallibility of the justice system, and the ramifications harsher sentences has on people who were falsley imprisoned.

As a previous commenter said, the US has tried the "tough on crime" stance many times in its history (e.g. war on drugs, Bill Clinton), and while it is an effective strategy for easy results to report in time for your next campaign, the problem has not been solved, merely swept under the rug.

I personally am glad that the US is at least attempting to find a solution that addresses the root cause rather than the symptoms of crime. But I would agree that we have not found that effective solution yet.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#273

Post by catiopatio »

itqwertz wrote: post #252
gloryjulio wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Due process started with the liquor store rightly calling the police about receiving a counterfeit bill from an intoxicated individual and the police questioning the suspect. When your culture tells you to resist, and you do, you have given up due process.

> When your culture tells you to resist, and you do, you have given up due process.

If not due process if it’s possible to “give up” due process.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#274

Post by hasseldahoff »

gloryjulio wrote: post #259
itqwertz wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due process started with the liquor store rightly calling the police about receiving a counterfeit bill from an intoxicated individual and the police questioning the suspect. When your culture tells you to resist, and you do, you have given up due process.

So u r saying he deserves to be dead? And by culture u mean u r a racist right? Btw do u know white ppl r killed too? Thanks for saying the quiet part loud, that's all we need to see ;).

[dead]

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#275

Post by jltsiren »

Eumenes wrote: post #224
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really doesn't happen in technology outside of the US. It seems like way more of a US thing in general, but I can't fully speak to that.

That's not true. I worked for a big tech company with a large European presence and they 100% heavily factored in the prestige of what university you went into for hiring. Also, they do this with career fairs/college hiring - they aren't sending college recruiters to a community college, they're sending them to MIT, Oxford, Stanford, Yale, Harvey Mudd, etc.

If you work for an American company, you usually get the American experience. Local companies tend to be more in sync with the local culture.

One thing I remember from Finland is people who went to a prestigious foreign university and then returned home without work experience complaining how difficult it is to find a job. In some fields, a fresh graduate without real professional experience beyond internships is already a bit suspicious, because the Finnish system encourages starting your career before graduating. Finding job opportunities is difficult, because you don't have any professional contacts. And while recruiters recognize that you went to a reputable university, they don't know what to expect from you.

And if you went to a school like Harvey Mudd, which isn't really known outside the US, your situation is even worse. Because they don't know the school, recruiters may assume that you got your degree from a for-profit diploma mill and ignore your application.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#276

Post by elcritch »

chongli wrote: post #245
Arainach wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Having done a minor in criminal justice, officers, lawmakers, and others involved in the justice system could absolutely benefit from exposure to sociology and academic CJ. The American "justice" system is a travesty and continues following methods that we've known not to work for many decades. To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Part of that is education. Part of that…

The US has a fairly large political contingent that believes in retributive justice, not rehabilitative or restorative justice. In a lot of places the police have a culture of the "warrior mentality" and well-meaning new officers are either brought in line or driven out of the profession. This is compounded by the huge numbers of private and illegal/black market firearms on the street which make policing extremely da…

Note I don’t believe policing is in even the top 25 most dangerous jobs in the USA. I’m not sure the “extremely “ dangerous applies when driving a truck or most construction jobs are more dangerous.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#277

Post by _8j50 »

I'll start by saying I have no problem with degrees and wish I had the time and money for one.

Working in infosec, I have seen really smart hackers who have no degrees and talented folks with degrees. Degrees simply can't tell you how talented a person is. That said, they do tell you how adaptable a person can be to a corporate environment if they ever work in management. But also, degrees technical folks tend to think very much in a box or in a "political" mindset that you see in academia (teacher's pet, death by powerpoint,etc...). You would think college teaches people to think outside of the box but many have the "this is how we did it in school" mindset which is hard to unlearn and even grads from unk's that have respectable infosec programs lack some very basic undersranding of infosec fundamentals or awareness of current trends in offense or defense.

Now my speculation is that college spends too much time giving students broad initial exposure and mostly in a theoretical framework. For at least half of a bachelor's degree they don't even touch the subject of what they majored in. Someone who has passion for the work and hands on IT or programming experience is much more likely to succeed than someone who relied on being spoonfed at school. But like I said, you do get talented people with degrees, it just doesn't tell you on it's own if they are qualified or not.

I personally consider the modern college system an ancient holdover from british colonial era. Technology has changed too much to be this inflexible to education.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#278

Post by chongli »

elcritch wrote: post #276
chongli wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has a fairly large political contingent that believes in retributive justice, not rehabilitative or restorative justice. In a lot of places the police have a culture of the "warrior mentality" and well-meaning new officers are either brought in line or driven out of the profession. This is compounded by the huge numbers of private and illegal/black market firearms on the street which make policing extremely da…

Note I don’t believe policing is in even the top 25 most dangerous jobs in the USA. I’m not sure the “extremely “ dangerous applies when driving a truck or most construction jobs are more dangerous.

This is similar to the issue with statistics around shark attacks. Sure, policing overall is pretty safe because 99.9% of the time you're not trying to arrest an armed and dangerous suspect. Sharks are safe too because 99.9+% of the time people aren't even in the ocean where they might encounter sharks.

But if it's your job to go out into the ocean and interact with sharks face-to-face, those encounters are way more dangerous than the general statistics would have us believe. Same goes for police when they have to deal with an active shooter situation. That's what I mean by "extremely dangerous". Compared to Canada or most of Europe, the US has vastly more active shooter situations, and at least some of that can be attributed to the availability of firearms.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#280

Post by injb »

smcin wrote: post #162
redavni wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Domestic disputes are one of the most likely calls to result in an injury to or death of an officer. I sure wouldn't want to show up to a couple fighting in a bad neighborhood without backup and guns because some suburbanite is squeamish about violence. Especially for like $50k a year or less.

> Domestic disputes are one of the most likely calls to result in an injury to or death of an officer. I don't see that the FBI stats support that claim, and even if, the rate is still comparatively low, and skews very heavily towards the US South (which is only 38% of the population, but has very high gun ownership and gun violence rates): Police officers' risk of on-the-job death in most years averages #14 .. #18,…

>>> Police officers' risk of on-the-job death in most years averages #14 .. #18, behind logging, fishing, farming, construction, heavy manufacturing, trucking

The difference is that everyone who works on those jobs has roughly the same risk. A cop who has to respond to a disturbance in a bad area is fat more at risk than someone in the crime lab or the evidence room. If you look at the risk of injury to cops who are out on patrol all day, it's more dangerous.

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