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Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

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Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#271

Post by mikem170 »

chimprich wrote: post #268
mikem170 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a very different statistic: under 40s, and only in men, and only for one vaccine, after a second dose. The original post you replied to said: > i'm still not convinced the vaccines were a net positive - especially for the sub 60 cohort when looking at the actual stats - the risks are higher from the myocarditis than from actual Covid, at least in the younger pop. They had that part in there that said "at lea…

> They had that part in there that said "at least in the younger population". They didn't say the sub 60 cohort only, like you quoted. They absolutely did! Let's go through that one sentence clause by clause. > i'm still not convinced the vaccines were a net positive ...which is utterly ridiculous. The vaccines have clearly saved tens of millions of lives by any reasonable assessment. > especially for the sub 60 coho…

Ah, a miscommunication then. I read the original poster as referring to the myocardetis issues that do exist for younger people, issues that I was already familiar with, backed up by numbers from the American Heart Association.

Your reading of the original post wasn't very charitable, considering there was some truth to their complete statement - "at least for the younger population", as they mentioned. Or maybe you didn't know this risk existed.

If you had said "we now know that's true only for males under 40 years old getting moderna" about this persons concerns, instead of "bullshit, cite sources" I wouldn't have jumped in. You asked specifically about the myocardetis risk from the vaccines in under-60s. That's the relevant data I linked to, the best data that we have at the moment, that I know of. I wanted to provide more accurate information for other people reading this.

The risk of myocardetis is certainly something younger men would have been prudent to pay attention to, the study quoted in the linked article showed that this problem really has existed and appears to be specific to the Moderna vaccine, which we weren't sure about before. I find it odd that you doubt the American Heart Association on this. There's also the blood clot problems discovered in younger women for other vaccines, so it hasn't been just younger men that have had concerns. This is all new information we didn't have at the time the vaccines were released, and statistically relevant given the low risk of death from covid for young people. Countries updated their vaccination policies because of this stuff, it makes sense that there were concerned individuals like the original poster paying attention along the way.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#272

Post by lamontcg »

lamontcg wrote: post #258
mancerayder wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the rest of the context here? To avoid implying anything let's recap: Heart attacks are on the rise, is the topic. Some are saying it's due to covid-19, as implied by parent. Some are saying things like, "What if this is just due to people on average being the fattest and most stressed out they've ever been? Being inside for a few years didn't help everyone physically." (comment here) And suggesting othe…

> I then point out that almost everyone has had covid-19 at this point. I literally don't understand how you can think that is a counter argument. We know that COVID-19 is also a clotting disorder because it slaps us in the face with it in severe cases. We expect that in less severe cases there could be long-term damage that only causes issues months to years later. We see that risk of death increases 18 months after…

> Nobody disputes that

[Well I guess as with all strong statements about humans that's not true, but outside of a few people on twitter with bad math and an emotional need to keep the pandemic running forever, nobody else thinks that COVID is going to cause serious harm to literally everyone]

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#273

Post by arghnoname »

autoexec wrote: post #108
arghnoname wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you note, the VAERS database is voluntary and probably misses many conditions that aren't associated with a vaccine when undergoing treatment. I accept that taking medicine, any medicine, imposes risk for adverse events. What's crazy to me is we just underwent widespread inoculation of a brand new type of vaccine technology that has never been used in humans before, meant to inoculate us against a disease that nev…

> is we just underwent widespread inoculation of a brand new type of vaccine technology that has never been used in humans before If you're referring to mRNA vaccines here, then this simply isn't true. They had been used in humans before. For example they were given to humans in trials of a rabies vaccine in 2013. ( https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w ) mRNA vaccines are a more recent tool, but not som…

I appreciate the correction mRNA vaccine use. I was imprecise, I meant to say something like, '...never approved for widespread use.' Never emerging from trials successfully is relatively speaking an untested medicine compared to more traditional methods of vaccination.

The problem with this whole situation is we were/are in inherently uncharted waters here. I suspect people above a certain age or in certain circumstances should be vaccinated and probably get boosted at some frequency and people below a certain age who are otherwise healthy do not receive enough of a benefit for this to be a blanket recommendation. I am confident that the benefit to the patient and others (vis a vis transmission) is too low to mandate vaccination for young people.

What has happened is the authorities and public health officials generally marched out there in a very authoritative and confident way, asserted things they could not assert, and then mandated censorship and vaccination in a very cavalier way. There's been a lot of lying, or more charitably, just getting ahead of their skis and asserting things as truth that were just unknowable. This puts everyone in a situation of having to evaluate a lot of murky data on their own.

I was a microbiology major in college long enough to have taken immunology, virology, etc courses. I'm not totally ill-equipped, but I have no interest or frankly time and ability to read and digest these studies and make the best possible decisions for myself. Lacking some central authority I can trust now, I don't think I have a choice though.

I very much hope mRNA vaccines turn out to be revolutionary. There's a lot of promise there, and maybe we've even realized it. If there are issues, maybe they are minor and can be resolved, but the damage to public trust is almost irreparable.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#274

Post by arghnoname »

justsomeadvice0 wrote: post #107
arghnoname wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you note, the VAERS database is voluntary and probably misses many conditions that aren't associated with a vaccine when undergoing treatment. I accept that taking medicine, any medicine, imposes risk for adverse events. What's crazy to me is we just underwent widespread inoculation of a brand new type of vaccine technology that has never been used in humans before, meant to inoculate us against a disease that nev…

Nit: mRNA vaccines were used in human trials for cancer immunotherapy starting in 2001, rabies in 2013, ebola, zika, influenza, cytamegalovirus, etc followed. It's not accurate to say the technology had "never been used in humans before" COVID19; but the US FDA had never approved widespread use of it until then.

Fair enough, I overstated my case, thanks. I hope the intention, that they are an untested technology compared to traditional vaccination, is not lost though.

This vax technology is super impressive and promising. I would like to see it succeed, hopefully in a way that some of the loss in public trust can be restored.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#275

Post by kosherhurricane »

Izkata wrote: post #257
kosherhurricane wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines? Because antivaxxers don't want to have a nuanced discussion of pro and cons of any vaccine. This iteration is "mRNA is new so it's bad". But it's always been the same and ends with "vaccine is bad" for them. It's not possible to bring a reasonable discussion to someone who will happily throw out reason to accept their own…

> Because antivaxxers don't want to have a nuanced discussion of pro and cons of any vaccine. This iteration is "mRNA is new so it's bad". But it's always been the same and ends with "vaccine is bad" for them. It's not possible to bring a reasonable discussion to someone who will happily throw out reason to accept their own preconceived conclusions. This is a common viewpoint of someone who hasn't actually seen their…

> 2021 countries kept having massive covid waves after reaching high vaccination rates.

This happened in low vaccination rate countries like Russia, South Africa, etc. So probably not due to vaccination.

> Around the same time they noticed the spike in myocarditis in young men

This was noticed with people catching covid pre-vaccines.

> they use archive sites to keep things available from official websites that get deleted,

I've seen those sites. They said "hydroxychloroquine data was being suppressed". Then they switched to "ivermectin data was being suppressed". And at the same time they were against "mandatory masking". They've always been against vaccines, mitigation, shutdowns, masks.

Basically, they were all for letting the disease run rampant.

> when they have evidence no one wants to look at ... they just get ignored through ad-hominims instead.

UFO guys have been saying the exactly the same thing for 50 years. Lol.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#276

Post by [deleted] »

lamontcg wrote: post #258
mancerayder wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the rest of the context here? To avoid implying anything let's recap: Heart attacks are on the rise, is the topic. Some are saying it's due to covid-19, as implied by parent. Some are saying things like, "What if this is just due to people on average being the fattest and most stressed out they've ever been? Being inside for a few years didn't help everyone physically." (comment here) And suggesting othe…

> I then point out that almost everyone has had covid-19 at this point. I literally don't understand how you can think that is a counter argument. We know that COVID-19 is also a clotting disorder because it slaps us in the face with it in severe cases. We expect that in less severe cases there could be long-term damage that only causes issues months to years later. We see that risk of death increases 18 months after…

[deleted]

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#277

Post by RickJWagner »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #17

For those who are desperate to draw a link between vaccines and heart attacks, this article essentially says the opposite of that. While the paper itself doesn't differentiate between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, it does contain a graph showing a state-by-state breakdown of acute myocardial infarction (AMI)-associated deaths: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/c0aed082-9f81-4a88... Dark purple is a…

I'm wondering about Maine....

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#278

Post by thunky »

dham wrote: post #206
whatshisface wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people could talk about real problems like this and not made-up problems like you'd seen being passed around on social media. The politicization (which has lead to a complete jam-up in the public discourse - on one side you have heavy, active censorship and on the other you have totally fabricated hysterical theories with no grounding in reality) and close integration between the manufacturers and the regulato…

Yet, the simple mention of aspiration meant you were conspiracy theorist. So we can't even have the simple conversations, much less the difficult ones.

I asked the person administering boosters at Walgreens about aspiration. She had never heard of it.

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#279

Post by Izkata »

kosherhurricane wrote: post #275
Izkata wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because antivaxxers don't want to have a nuanced discussion of pro and cons of any vaccine. This iteration is "mRNA is new so it's bad". But it's always been the same and ends with "vaccine is bad" for them. It's not possible to bring a reasonable discussion to someone who will happily throw out reason to accept their own preconceived conclusions. This is a common viewpoint of someone who hasn't actually seen their…

> 2021 countries kept having massive covid waves after reaching high vaccination rates. This happened in low vaccination rate countries like Russia, South Africa, etc. So probably not due to vaccination. > Around the same time they noticed the spike in myocarditis in young men This was noticed with people catching covid pre-vaccines. > they use archive sites to keep things available from official websites that get de…

Aaaand that's an example of exactly what I'm talking about. Ignore half my statement to argue against something unrelated and pretend you refuted it, jump to preconceptions without knowing what I was referring to, and deflect by trying to associate my comment with crazy people.

Would you like to try again?

Re: Heart attacks on rise for 25-44 age group

#280

Post by thunky »

chimprich wrote: post #270
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR > And we have -- we can kind of almost see the end. We`re vaccinating so very fast, our data from the CDC today suggests, you know, that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don`t get sick, and that it`s not just in the clinical trials but it`s also in real world data. https://web.archive.org/web/20210402002315/https://www.msnbc...

Oh good grief. That's a transcript of a real-time interview. People speak colloquially in ways that are not precise. Is that the best you can come up with?

It's the fucking director of the CDC. Precision is not optional, not for her, not on this subject.

She also said:

"We're just almost there, but not quite yet. And so I'm asking you to just hold on a little longer to get vaccinated when you can, so that all of those people that we all love will still be here when this pandemic ends.”

Give me a break.

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