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Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

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Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#271
post #14

I used to agree with you until I created a new Twitter account from scratch. I'm not American and I specifically put non-political things in my interests. Yet, the second I signed up I got the following: 1. A notification about a smug reply a rando made to a Republican Congressman. 2. Posts from a meme page with a Pepe the frog avatar showing homeless people fighting in San Francisco. 3. Somebody I don't follow accus…

When I first registered on Twitter I didn't understand how anyone finds it useful and left my account idle for ± 3 years.

It only became useful when I copied a highly curated follower list from a coworker. Since then I have onboarded several people to Twitter this way. They start by copying my follows to get it to a useful state.

Its quite clear there is lots of improvement space here.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#272
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You agree and then list a bunch of technical problems.

Those aren't technical problems. They have nothing to do with the tech stack of Twitter, how it scales, whether it's centralized or decentralized, etc. It's entirely how the experience is structured and what users are allowed to do, how site is designed independent of implementation details.

OP says the problem is with humans. You clearly say at least part of the problem is with the code. OP would call that "technical problems". As would I.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#273
post #210
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is so hard about the concept of allowing people to be wrong about things? People act on that basis? If all this stuff was totally disconnected from the real world, then sure yeah whatever, but it isn't. The point is that Pete Pelosi was attacked by a terrorist who'd be radicalized by wrong information. The "groomer" stuff worries me because I know enough queer people who are now more likely to face real, physi…

I'm not responsible for people acting on whatever basis they do unless I actively blackmail or incite them to do something. >The point is that Pete Pelosi was attacked by a terrorist who'd be radicalized by wrong information. Where exactly is the point in this? Clearly this happen before Musk's post about it so where exactly is the connection? >The "groomer" stuff worries me... I could tell by reading your post but I…

> I'm not responsible for people acting on whatever basis they do unless I actively blackmail or incite them to do something.

If you make false accusations about people, and that results in them losing business, or being harassed or physically attacked, then you are responsible.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#274
post #13

I disagree. Your points aren't necessarily wrong, but they ignore one big factor. Twitter chooses what content to promote to people. I could use Twitter quite happily not knowing about the latest "scandal" in, say, the knitting world. But Twitter actively promotes that content to me - either with the "trending" sidebar or by showing me content that it thinks will increase my engagement. That is a technical problem. H…

> the latest "scandal" in, say, the knitting world

Figuring that was likely an exaggeration, but realizing that you just never really know in 2022, I decided to google “knitting scandal” and low and behold the human race never fails to disappoint in its capacity to create chaos among its various communities.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#275
post #273
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not responsible for people acting on whatever basis they do unless I actively blackmail or incite them to do something. >The point is that Pete Pelosi was attacked by a terrorist who'd be radicalized by wrong information. Where exactly is the point in this? Clearly this happen before Musk's post about it so where exactly is the connection? >The "groomer" stuff worries me... I could tell by reading your post but I…

> I'm not responsible for people acting on whatever basis they do unless I actively blackmail or incite them to do something. If you make false accusations about people, and that results in them losing business, or being harassed or physically attacked, then you are responsible.

That is wrong. Its not the result that matters but the intention.

I can say whatever I want and you can claim it direly affected you or your business but you need to prove malice/intent beyond reasonable doubt. There mere fact that an accusation was false is not enough.

Beside that no statement (false or not) justifies a physical attack so there is no legal responsibly for such an actions. Even if the attacker says he did it because of the person who made a statement.

Exceptions are ofc increment/blackmailing someone to do it/offer a bounty for the violent action/hiring a hit-men/etc. All of these obviously have malice/intent which his what matters.

Consequently hiring a hit-men is a crime even if the hit-man fails do to any damage or never had the intention to do anything and just steals the money. Because again the result doesn't make the crime its the intention that does.

Obviously all of the above is intentionally simplified and not legal advice.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#276
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not responsible for people acting on whatever basis they do unless I actively blackmail or incite them to do something. >The point is that Pete Pelosi was attacked by a terrorist who'd be radicalized by wrong information. Where exactly is the point in this? Clearly this happen before Musk's post about it so where exactly is the connection? >The "groomer" stuff worries me... I could tell by reading your post but I…

So you would have no issue with a concerted, national effort backed by politicians and the owner of the largest public square on the Internet to label you a pedophile and an enemy of the people? And you would react kindly to the wave of death threats and potential violence towards you and your loved ones that would come as a result?

This is totally silly, these are slurs/insults not acts of violence or incitements.

Also why is "groomer" apparently "incitement of violence" but directly saying "pedophile" isn't? How can one word put people in imminent danger but the other not if they are almost interchangeably used?

Needless to say that if a word is banned people just use a different word or they use codes. So if you are actually worried about people getting hurt you know that banning word and related account suspensions isn't doing anything against actual violence.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#277
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you would have no issue with a concerted, national effort backed by politicians and the owner of the largest public square on the Internet to label you a pedophile and an enemy of the people? And you would react kindly to the wave of death threats and potential violence towards you and your loved ones that would come as a result?

This is totally silly, these are slurs/insults not acts of violence or incitements. Also why is "groomer" apparently "incitement of violence" but directly saying "pedophile" isn't? How can one word put people in imminent danger but the other not if they are almost interchangeably used? Needless to say that if a word is banned people just use a different word or they use codes. So if you are actually worried about peo…

> Also why is "groomer" apparently "incitement of violence" but directly saying "pedophile" isn't? How can one word put people in imminent danger but the other not if they are almost interchangeably used?

That's the point. Both put people in danger when used maliciously. If I told all your neighbors that you're a pedophile and a danger to children, you would feel uncomfortable and probably unsafe. Now imagine that I told all your neighbors, and then started putting up flyers all around town. Would you feel safe? Do you think you'd be able to convince your town that you're not a pedophile? Just saying "more free speech defeats bad speech" doesn't really work.

I'm not talking about banning words. I'm talking about moderation to deal with targeted campaigns of misinformation designed to put people in danger by powerful people with huge platforms.

> these are slurs/insults not acts of violence or incitements

When your rhetoric also often includes violence, they are incitements. "There's a pedophile living in your neighborhood, snatching up children left and right, right under your nose! We must act as We The People to defend our way of life against these groomers!"

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, your post reads like an apology for the behaviour. My point mainly was that Twitter's success going forwards depends on ad revenue and there was apparently a huge uptick in slurs of all kinds right after the deal closed and he became owner.[1] Maybe there's some untapped reservoir of people willing to shell out to have the Twitter blue checkmark, given it used to have some cachet and they will successfully pi…

> [Y]our post reads like an apology for the behaviour. I wager you are unable to explain how, because it doesn’t.

    I don't see people "spamming" racial slurs. The most inflammatory thing I see is videos of young groups of African-Americans behaving badly. In the replies, I see comments like "usual suspects," or various memes that are admittedly racial slurs: for example, Jane Goodall with a pair of binoculars and the caption "Interesting behavior." I'm not saying that's nice. That's bad. But it's the most easily avoided thing.
Reads as: "People aren't spamming racial slurs. They're just posting racist memes. I don't see it, therefore it doesn't exist. Obviously it's bad but it's easily avoidable."

These are all typical ways to deflect from reality. I note that your response doesn't actually respond to the meat of my post in either case. You went out of your way to take issue with my statement about advertising not liking ads next to that kind of content.

    There have always been dark corners of the Internet. Twitter's dark corners are so easily avoided, and a fraction of the traffic on the platform, as far as I can tell. Is there actually any data allowing people to make sense of it all, as opposed to allowing them to make a biased argument? 
Reads as: "Even if it was, it's just the 'bad parts' and it's definitely not a big part of the platform."

Again distracts from the idea that advertisers might stop spending ad dollars on Twitter if that sort of thing is more allowed there. If you feel my statement is overbroad then argue about the actual thrust of what I said about advertisers' ad spend. Argue that it's not enough of a problem for advertisers to be concerned, rather than trying to deny it's happening in the first place. Acknowledge the sources you're presented, and dispute them if you can, rather than handwaving it away.

Yes, your entire interaction here reeks of apology, including your follow-up.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#279
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally silly, these are slurs/insults not acts of violence or incitements. Also why is "groomer" apparently "incitement of violence" but directly saying "pedophile" isn't? How can one word put people in imminent danger but the other not if they are almost interchangeably used? Needless to say that if a word is banned people just use a different word or they use codes. So if you are actually worried about peo…

> Also why is "groomer" apparently "incitement of violence" but directly saying "pedophile" isn't? How can one word put people in imminent danger but the other not if they are almost interchangeably used? That's the point. Both put people in danger when used maliciously. If I told all your neighbors that you're a pedophile and a danger to children, you would feel uncomfortable and probably unsafe. Now imagine that I…

You are confusing speech on twitter with real life actions that include speech.

Going to my neighbors and lie about me is a real life action with speech. On top of that you force them to listen to you (at least temporally) AND it is targeted specifically at my neighbors which means you have an intent beyond informing people from the general public who happened to voluntary listens to you.

If it would actually be true then you could make the claim that your intent is to protect my neighbors kids (but you should ofc instead report it to the police) but if it is a baseless false accusation or lie then your INTENT was to harm me and that is not comparable in any way with a "slur", "insult" or "mean speech" its an actual criminal act.

>When your rhetoric also often includes violence, they are incitements. "There's a pedophile living in your neighborhood, snatching up children left and right, right under your nose! We must act as We The People to defend our way of life against these groomers!"

Nothing is this example is even remotely criminal, there is no way to find intent to harm someone in that. It could be boiled down to "lets protect our kids from criminals" A (generic) call to action but not to violence.

Its ofc silly to post something like that on twitter but it wouldn't even violate twitter rules. The word "groomer" on twitter is only "banned" if directed against a twitter user or other specific non-anonymous real person.

What actually happens on twitter is people are filmed acting and saying weird, creepy or sexual things around/to kids (Even the POTUS did that) and then people call them "groomers", "pedos" and other insults. I dont see the point of doing that but its definitely not criminal and not an incitement of violence its an insult and expression of disgust.

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