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Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

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Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#271

Post by danssig »

tsotha wrote: post #266
danssig wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And yet, I can guarantee you Google has hired at least two dim bulbs. No you can't. I really hate this kind of attitude people have. A person is not a static thing that is always X. Maybe they didn't like your company. Maybe they were suffering from burn-out, or had some kind of personal crisis. It could very well be the case that they're absolute rock stars at Google even though they were worthless at your company.

It's not hard to distinguish a person with problems from a person who just doesn't have a knack for programming. These two will never be "absolute rock stars". And they weren't "worthless" at my company. Just... a bit below average.

So you feel confident in saying that nothing on earth could make these guys improve? I don't believe it. I believe some people just need that "aha" moment. Others don't get it simply because they don't want to understand it.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#272

Post by getsat »

xytop wrote: post #247
googlethrowaway wrote: post #42

As a point of data, I work at Google and am at a similar point in my career. My base salary a year ago was $136k, but there was a companywide 10% raise last winter, and now my base is $150k. You get a cash bonus each year that's around 15% of your base, but if you're a superstar it can be double that, or if you're a total disappointment, it can be nothing. But if I perform as expected, that's another $22k. Finally, I…

I'm web developer, 25 years old, I'm raising 21000 euro/year. What I'm doing wrong? :/

> What I'm doing wrong?

You're not applying to visa-friendly startups in Silicon Valley right now. :)

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#273

Post by mathattack »

hammerdr wrote: post #88
wanorris wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, setting up software firms where the best developers can "make partner" would be quite an interesting approach. I'm not sure it would work, but if it did, it could be a perfect solution for keeping a great team together for the long haul.

See: Accenture. It's a consulting company not a product company; it may be significantly different when "making partner" at a product company. However, from what I've heard, each partner at Accenture essentially runs his or her own business within the larger scale of the organization. Success is directly tied to the success of the internal mini-businesses. It is, however, an example of a company where IT professional…

Though your premise is correct, Accenture is public, not private. They (like many others) wanted to expand beyond pure consulting, and the partners wanted to cash out.

Accounting and law firms may be a better example, though even they aren't as entrepreneurial as you think. They have their own regulations and internal politics.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#275

Post by rayiner »

tomkarlo wrote: post #269
rayiner wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the partner/director carrot in law/banking/consulting convinces tons of Harvard, Yale, etc, grads each year to work 80 hour weeks for their 20s for a shot at equity (which realistically is more like 5-10% at big NYC type places and upwards of 30% in secondary markets).

This is really mostly a law thing - banks and consulting firms, by and large, aren't partnership models any more and haven't been in a long time. Any large bank or consultancy is public now, which means they give equity to employees out of a huge pool and it has relatively little effect on the comp of their managers. That's different from a law firm, where even in fairly large ones the addition of new equity partners…

McKinsey and Bain are incorporated partnerships, and BCG is still an actual partnership. Goldman Sachs, JPM, etc, are public companies, but their investment banking and trading divisions operate very differently from a typical public company. GS, for example, pays out 50% of revenues as compensation, with MDs and PMDs (partner managing director) sharing from a huge profit pool. Internally they function very much like partnerships.

As for the chances of making partner, it depends heavily on the firm and the year. Skadden is something of an outlier[1]. The other big NYC firms bring aboard about ~100-120 associates per year, and promote between 5-15 depending on the economy. The last few years it's been around 5 and during the boom it was around 15. At medium-sized firms outside NYC, the %-age is more like 20-35%, though profits-per-partner at those firms are more like $300-500k/year, versus $2m+ at Skadden.

[1] Though your numbers seem grossly exaggerated. Worldwide Skadden brought aboard ~200 this year, which was a big crop. The two years before that were ~100 put together. And over the last few years, the partners promoted counts have been: 2007 (29), 2008 (25), 2009 (8), 2010 (6), 2011 (8).

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#276

Post by tsotha »

danssig wrote: post #271
tsotha wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to distinguish a person with problems from a person who just doesn't have a knack for programming. These two will never be "absolute rock stars". And they weren't "worthless" at my company. Just... a bit below average.

So you feel confident in saying that nothing on earth could make these guys improve? I don't believe it. I believe some people just need that "aha" moment. Others don't get it simply because they don't want to understand it.

"Nothing on earth could make these guys improve"? No, I wouldn't say that. But I am confident in saying they will always be below average. I've been doing this for a few decades now, and the idea everyone has the potential to be a great programmer just isn't borne out by that experience.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#277

Post by danssig »

tsotha wrote: post #276
danssig wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you feel confident in saying that nothing on earth could make these guys improve? I don't believe it. I believe some people just need that "aha" moment. Others don't get it simply because they don't want to understand it.

"Nothing on earth could make these guys improve"? No, I wouldn't say that. But I am confident in saying they will always be below average. I've been doing this for a few decades now, and the idea everyone has the potential to be a great programmer just isn't borne out by that experience.

>But I am confident in saying they will always be below average.

Of course there are and what I'm saying is that this isn't a static group. People will move in and out of it. I'm sure there is a very small percentage who stay at the bottom just as their is a very small percentage who stay at the top. But the bulk programmers are moving between these different groups through-out their careers.

>and the idea everyone has the potential to be a great programmer just isn't borne out by that experience.

What experience? You don't have any idea what's happened to the "no hopers" you've known in your career. I agree that some people seem like they're not going to get it, but who knows? Maybe they'll meet someone who flips a switch for them.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#278

Post by b_emery »

tryitnow wrote: post #121

This is a nice data point. But if you want to know the real deal, don't talk to fellow programmers. Talk to guys in finance who support the R&D function at tech firms. We know all and see all, everybody else except HR only sees data points. And are you seriously going to trust anybody from HR to interpret numbers? My advice: Do this work because you love it. But negotiate aggressively. Programmers don't push as hard…

Please do elaborate. I can only guess that you're talking about massive investment in CS departments in universities (US and abroad). I suspect that the only way to decrease salaries is to increase the pool of skilled labor.

My personal prediction is that programmers will continue to be in demand over the next decade, as demographics (shrinking workforce) collide with a growing economy, and the businesses that are currently disruptive become mainstream. That's my weakly held hypothesis at least...

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#279

Post by tsotha »

danssig wrote: post #277
tsotha wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nothing on earth could make these guys improve"? No, I wouldn't say that. But I am confident in saying they will always be below average. I've been doing this for a few decades now, and the idea everyone has the potential to be a great programmer just isn't borne out by that experience.

>But I am confident in saying they will always be below average. Of course there are and what I'm saying is that this isn't a static group. People will move in and out of it. I'm sure there is a very small percentage who stay at the bottom just as their is a very small percentage who stay at the top. But the bulk programmers are moving between these different groups through-out their careers. >and the idea everyone h…

Heh. Relevant thing happened today: One of them called yesterday asking if we had a position open.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#280

Post by whtvr_mike »

veyron wrote: post #58
cletus wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. (d) in particular is worth stressing. There is no difficulty in attracting and retaining talent. There is simply an unwillingness to pay them what they're worth and give them an environment in which they'd want to work. Supply and demand. It's pretty simple. Yet so many (typically business types) want to treat engineers as an interchangeable cost center. "5 years ago an engineer cost $100k so I refuse to pay…

The reason why business types see engineers as cost centers is because engineers have positioned themselves that way. Engineers pushed for higher salary in lieu of the variable upside. What engineers really need to do is to put more skin in the game. Push for more equity, even if it means accepting a smaller salary. All too often I see programmers who just want a 9-5 that pays 6 figures even if the company is seeing…

Having worked on the Priceline campaign and with Mr. Shatner, I can tell you he laughed significantly less than halfway to the bank. He cashed in his shares ten years ago, well before Priceline's recent stock blast-off. Your point, however, is valid: he was paid with shares.
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