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Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

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Re: Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

#271

Post by chriswarbo »

rzz3 wrote: post #87
yashg wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The sole purpose of blockchain is to prevent double spending without a trusted party That is most accurate description of blockchain I have read. Unfortunately, the mechanism for that (Proof-of-work) is slow, expensive and planet destroying at scale. And while we may remove a trust provider third party, we aren't getting rid of centralization with blockchain anyway.

Planet destroying is a bit extreme. The traditional finance system is no more energy efficient overall. It’s certainly not environmentally friendly, but that’s more a function of the dirty power we use for anything and everything. We just need to fix our methods of generating energy, not criticize everything that uses a lot of it.

> We just need to fix our methods of generating energy, not criticize everything that uses a lot of it.

The problem isn't that proof-of-work "uses a lot of [energy]"; the problem is that proof-of-work only exists to waste energy.

"Fix[ing] our methods of generating energy" is a red herring, since proof-of-work will automatically scale to consume any difference. It's a Red Queen's Race, which cannot be won.

Re: Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

#272

Post by petesergeant »

roonyh wrote: post #265
petesergeant wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm blockchain skeptical, but I think you're slightly throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. > the trusted party isn't eliminated by blockchain, because someone has to code the implementation of the software I don't think is relevant in practice, and I think the blockchain does solve this problem regarding double-spending. Yes, there's a centralized set of developers, but that does not seem to be a problem in…

Why the set of developers is considered centralised? I can write an implementation according to the specification and have no relationship with developers of another implementation.

My understanding is that the specification changes over time, and if your implementation doesn't match the central one, then the rest of the network stops interacting with you. That is: there is a massive network effect of people using github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin as canon, and there is a central group of devs with write-access there. While you can fork it, unless the rest of the network gets in on it, you've just created some altcoin that nobody cares about.

Re: Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

#273

Post by gregwebs »

FabHK wrote: post #243
gregwebs wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say that BTC + ETC use up about 1% of world electricity Where did you get that figure? If you read the researched article I linked, the estimate is around 0.1%. > would go up dramatically if BTC went up dramatically Not as dramatically as you think: if BTC goes up to 1 million per coin it will still be using less than 1% of global energy consumption (again relying on the article I previously cited as my source)…

I said electricity, not energy. Energy use encompasses industry, transport (oil), heating, and electricity. As for the rise, as I said, I think money spent on energy and electro waste is largely proportional to BTC price, since unscrupulous miners will be incentivised to come in and mine if mining profits become larger due to a higher price (since they are unconcerned about the externalities. Private gain, socialised…

Do you have a source for the electricity usage? 26% of US energy usage is for transportation. For your math to work, 90% of energy usage would have to be non-electrical.

If you read the article I linked about Bitcoin, it explains how Bitcoin mining stops producing coins over time and instead miners have to make their money in transaction fees- this is a very different model for mining incentive. Again, it would be great to see some sources or math contradicting the researched article that I linked to.

Re: Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

#274

Post by lottin »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #127
mypastself wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve read several technical, non-fluff books on the topic, and I’ve developed smart contracts on Ethereum for decent hourly wage (paid out in fiat). And I’ve still come to roughly the same conclusion as you. Either my reading comprehension is poor, or there is little actual value in the vast majority of blockchain applications. Digital cash, as defined in the Bitcoin whitepaper, still seems like the only real use cas…

If you've developed smart contracts, I'm surprised you don't consider the capability of trustless financial instruments (peer-to-peer lending and pooled lending, for example) to be pretty useful as well

Trustless financial instruments are not very useful to begin with, because finance requires trust (as does any economic activity). For example, there is no way to actually do financing (that is, trading future consumption for present consumption) without a trusted authority that has the power to re-allocate assets.

Re: Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

#275

Post by deebosong »

pirate787 wrote: post #255
jl6 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sole purpose of blockchain is to prevent double spending without a trusted party I would add that in nearly all cases it is totally reasonable to have a trusted party, and therefore that the value of the blockchain collapses down to a very, very small number of use cases (the ones that we all know about - fraud, extortion, money laundering, tax avoidance).

To be fair, also asset transfer out of authoritarian monetary regimes.

If I may inquire... could there be a better way to do this that's not blockchain tech? It's a noble cause, for sure. Like, viscerally most people will automatically agree with this cause.

But to prop up the entirety of cryptocurrency's shortcomings for this one thing... seems like.. it would make more sense... to just make a product/ technology that simply addresses this one use case that everyone by and large agrees is a good thing... nah?

Re: Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

#277

Post by geoduck14 »

throw0101a wrote: post #262
paulsutter wrote: post #19

The sole purpose of blockchain is to prevent double spending without a trusted party Other proposed applications are mostly dumb / misguided, like immutable storage, social network posts, etc, these can be done with hashing or digital signatures alone If you have a better way to avoid double spending than blockchain folks woukd get very excited. Traditional database can’t do that (requires a trusted party)

> The sole purpose of blockchain is to prevent double spending without a trusted party NIST's Blockchain Technology Overview is really good explainer: * https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/nistir/8202/final See especially Figure 6 ("p. 42", 53 of the PDF), which is a flow chart to help you decide on whether blockchain matches one's use case. Extracted: * https://imgur.com/a/RlUj9Ed

I love it:

Do you need ? No -> consider DATABASE

Re: Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

#278

Post by ZeroGravitas »

zzonk wrote: post #263
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but it's the absolutism that's the issue, not the buggy code. When designing automated replacments for any business process you have to deal with the same 'exceptions'. You could just accept "computer says no" as the desired outcome in exchange for the efficiency, and let hackers take your money because "hey, they beat the system! It's theirs now" but that's a choice, not a limitation of the tech itself. Unless…

The problem is that if you allow overrides in the computer absolutism, corrupt governments will use these overrides to their benefit. And you’re back to the square one.

If the government is corrupt, then you've got problems regardless.

The general solution to this issue has been more and better democracy, which despite a lot of effort being spent undermining it, still seems to be the best solution available today.

Re: Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

#279

Post by kylebenzle »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #160
mypastself wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve read several technical, non-fluff books on the topic, and I’ve developed smart contracts on Ethereum for decent hourly wage (paid out in fiat). And I’ve still come to roughly the same conclusion as you. Either my reading comprehension is poor, or there is little actual value in the vast majority of blockchain applications. Digital cash, as defined in the Bitcoin whitepaper, still seems like the only real use cas…

But even 'digital cash' doesn't need this, for most definitions and use cases. Even if we're talking about smuggling money out of authoritarian regimes, or buying soft drugs, or hiring hitmen online, I'm not sure it makes any actual sense compared with alternatives. Feels like a way for people who've been convinced that government doesn't work to feel like they're re-inventing government with extra steps, mixed with…

No post body was provided.

Re: Ask HN: Am I going insane or is there genuinely no value in blockchain tech?

#280

Post by mejutoco »

giantg2 wrote: post #202
lmohseni wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’ve ever written code, and if you’ve ever written a bug, then you will understand that code as law is terrible idea, especially when it comes to finance.

"If you’ve ever written code, and if you’ve ever written a bug, then you will understand that code as law is terrible idea, especially when it comes to finance." If your argument is that there could be bugs in the code, then how is this different from the law today? The legal system is rife with abuses and injustices. It most certainly has bugs as-is.

The difference is the judge that applies the law and looks at the context. Not that it is perfect.
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