Americans overestimate social mobility in their country • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#271

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

atoav wrote: post #27

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it would be easier to become "filthy rich" for a poor person when they start in a nation with free healthcare and education. Poor people in USA have both free healthcare and education. If they're willing to fill-out some forms. Edit: Yes, contrary to the popular belief, poor people in USA do, in fact, get free health care and education.

> If they're willing to fill-out some forms. How does that part work in practise? Are these forms something someone from a poor uneducated background can actually realistically fill out? The way I see it many Americans I had the chance to talk with either take a gamble on their health or they spend not unsignificant time and energy to find their ways through the system. The first choice can turn out just fine, or (in…

When I quit my job to go back to college full time, I qualified for our state healthcare which was basically socialized healthcare, although kinda shitty in terms of how often you can do stuff or how little you ever have to pay.

It was incredibly simple actually. The only reason I didn't lose it when I got my internship was cause of COVID. Had it not been for that, even with a full-time in summer, part time year round, I still made more than allotted to qualify...which was frankly a joke.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#272

Post by abhinai » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:32 AM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #250

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read about another study relatively recently (maybe it was HN? Not sure.) that talked about some of the fundamental flaws when looking at these types of economic mobility studies (i.e. change of moving from bottom quintile to top quintile, etc.) because they usually only look at income and ignore social class . That is, suppose Bob is a rich banker. His kid Frank goes to private school and on to an Ivy League colle…

It’s easy to choose the artist life if your parents can bail you out when shit happens. A little harder if you’re expected to be the bail out for your parents.

I’m putting this quote on Twitter. :). What handle should I use to credit you?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#273

Post by Thorrez » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:33 AM UTC

DarylZero wrote: post #256

Thorrez wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they have good heating or air conditioning or medical care? Running water or plumbing or lighting? Travel was also much much harder.

Instead of the conveniences of modern technology, they had servants. They lived a life of full service, comparable to the most expensive modern hotels. They had "running water" -- as in servants would run and fetch the water. There was nothing inconvenient about the king's access to water. It would be served to him. How do you get your water?

Was the water cold? Filtered well?

Yes, food and drink was probably better for them, because technology related to those can be replaced by manpower. For air conditioning, healthcare, lighting, or travel they had problems.

> How do you get your water?

I takes me a few seconds to get cold, pure water from my fridge.

The bigger benefit of running water I think is hygiene. I doubt they would have a hot shower. A hot bath would be possible for the king, but not other people. A lot of the servants would probably stink, and the toilets were holes in the side of the castle that went into the street. I think it smelled quite bad.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#274

Post by wahern » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:34 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #262

wahern wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This analysis also ignores government transfers. AFAIU, by dollar amount government transfers in the U.S. are roughly comparable to those in most European countries. However, a disproportionate amount of those transfers are spent on medical care, a consequence of the high cost of medical care in the U.S. Moreover, a disproportionate amount of government medical spending goes toward the elderly and small, high risk…

Disagree. The biggest transfer is cash through the EITC. If you're eligible for EITC, you're likely eligible for Medicaid which has near-zero out of pocket costs for medical care. I keep hearing how the US has a "non-existant safety net" yet can help but notice safety net programs are more than half the federal budget.

> The biggest transfer is cash through the EITC.

Per Wikipedia, "At a cost of $56 billion in 2013, the EITC is the third-largest social welfare program in the United States after Medicaid ($275 billion federal and $127 billion state expenditures) and food stamps ($78 billion)".[1] That looks to me like Medicaid spending is nearly 8x that of EITC.

And that's just Medicaid. Medicare spending is greater still, though I don't know the breakdown of Medicare spending by revenue source--FICA vs straight government subsidy. The subsidized component may be less than Medicaid, or may already be accounted for by Medicaid.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit Wikipedia's source is http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/08/federal-spe...

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#275

Post by popcube » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:36 AM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #248

Jensson wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genes. Of course people like you don't believe in genes, but it explains most things we see here. It is really hard to make poor people successful even if you give them resources, a top 10% childhood is extremely cheap compared to how much society derives from those, if it was that easy then Governments would already mass produce those. 70 years ago college was only for the elite. Today close to half of young adults…

What's a "person like me" ? What do I believe? Or not believe?

I guess this is because we do not have blue blood:(

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#276

Post by refurb » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

lifeformed wrote: post #86

rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

> It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. That's if you also had a healthy learning environment at school and home, can afford college, and have a healthy early development to be able to grow up into an sufficiently smart child. A lot of people in the bottom 20% don't have those initial conditions.

Sure, but that situation is not unique to America. Go to any country in the world and if you have a bad upbringing, how far you go is likely stunted.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#277

Post by refurb » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

thepasswordis wrote: post #119

Regardless of how much money I make, none of my friends went to Stanford, I grew up in a boring town in a boring part of the world, and I made my money in an “unglamorous” industry. I could make $10B. I still wouldn’t reach the top level of class. Maybe my kids kids will. Here’s an attempt to say something positive about this: you guys should try to seek out those unglamorous industries, usually in unglamorous parts…

Agree 100%. I knew a couple people that did that. One started a business that manages washing machine rentals for apartment buildings. The other did a plumbing supply business. Both walked away with enough to retire after 10 years of working on the business.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#278

Post by bawolff » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:43 AM UTC

csallen wrote: post #100

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

Because when people feel like there is no hope to make it to the top, they become resentful and society starts to break down.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#279

Post by refurb » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

rowanajmarshall wrote: post #24

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

I think perhaps the US makes it hard for a single person to move from bottom to top quintile. But I bet that the US is the country that makes it the easiest for you to be in the bottom quintile and have grandchildren in the top quintile. Basically, I think the US is likely the best for generational family mobility. I have seen this story many times with immigrants. The immigrants come over and work often very menial…

> Basically, I think the US is likely the best for generational family mobility. I have seen this story many times with immigrants What makes you think this doesn't happen so much in other countries?

Because in many countries, you'll always be an outsider.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#280

Post by visarga » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:47 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #134

twobitshifter wrote: post #95

I think the first step is to admit we have a problem. People don’t like the United States being labeled as anything less than exceptional. If you look at the Amazon workers, Uber drivers, door dashers, etc in this country it’s amazing how hard people can work and not get ahead. 2nd and 3rd jobs can be necessary to just make ends meet. The story that hard work is all it takes in America does need to be questioned.

> it’s amazing how hard people can work and not get ahead It's not how hard one works, it's how smart one works. The second aspect is what does one do with the income one has, which has a crucial impact on the person's future.

> It's not how hard one works, it's how smart one works.

With a single signature you can enter into debt and ruin your life, or enter into a bad marriage and do the same. Taking the right life decisions is essential.