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Bitcoin is a Ponzi

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Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#271

Post by chemmail »

justapassenger wrote: post #129
glenvdb wrote: post #51

A lot of the "Common Objections" relate to the REASONS people choose to own Bitcoin and how those cases make it a Ponzi. There are many different reasons to own Bitcoin, however the author seems to only view it through the lens of someone living in a wealthy and developed country with financial stability. The properties of it being difficult/impossible to confiscate and its privacy make it valuable in oppressive regi…

I find it very manipulative to use people suffering as an excuse to pump speculative assets. Sure, there’s very tiny amount of people who use Bitcoin as you described. But so there’re people who get benefits from smoking.

Bitcoin is merely a technology. Calling it a Ponzi is the same as calling the Internet a Ponzi. They are merely tools. How one uses ultimately determines the coarse.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#272

Post by speedgoose »

glenvdb wrote: post #254
zacmps wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, what applications? Besides accelerating global warming there doesn't seem to be anything it's good at.

Please look at this data and then come back and tell me you still think Bitcoin mining is having a meaningful impact on climate change and why. https://cbeci.org/index/comparisons I'd be curious to read your thoughts.

Not op but I quickly looked through your link. It's as bad as I thought. There is so need to waste so much energy into a bad database.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#273

Post by reedjosh »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #249
glenvdb wrote: post #51

A lot of the "Common Objections" relate to the REASONS people choose to own Bitcoin and how those cases make it a Ponzi. There are many different reasons to own Bitcoin, however the author seems to only view it through the lens of someone living in a wealthy and developed country with financial stability. The properties of it being difficult/impossible to confiscate and its privacy make it valuable in oppressive regi…

The fees for Bitcoin are way too high to make sense for citizens in poor authoritarian counties. The average transaction fee during slow periods is about $5 and it jumps to $20 whenever there is load on the network. And the lightning network is a poor solution to this because the LN requires a lot of capital to fund channels, something poor people explicitly don't have. Finally, the fact that Bitcoin proponents have…

Monero does solve these issues though.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#274

Post by jazzyjackson »

cemerick wrote: post #176
glenvdb wrote: post #51

A lot of the "Common Objections" relate to the REASONS people choose to own Bitcoin and how those cases make it a Ponzi. There are many different reasons to own Bitcoin, however the author seems to only view it through the lens of someone living in a wealthy and developed country with financial stability. The properties of it being difficult/impossible to confiscate and its privacy make it valuable in oppressive regi…

"Bitcoin privacy" is a contradiction in terms, as has been repeatedly proven. You set up a scene of a refugee "storing their wealth in Bitcoin", but it begs the question: where are these refugees with substantial wealth they are looking to exfiltrate? Typical refugees are emigrating from locales where they were earning dollars per day. The use case of shielding hoarded wealth during a journey to a freer locale is a b…

this is not an accurate portrayal of refugees. i can’t be bothered to look for a source atm, but the first wave of refugees out of syria that caused a panic in Europe were not poor, unskilled laborers - they were middle and upper class families who could afford plane tickets. It costs many thousands of dollars to cross borders illegally by the way, so you’re likely to exhaust your savings trying to escape whatever you’re running from.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#275

Post by lalaland1125 »

newswasboring wrote: post #266
lalaland1125 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fees for Bitcoin are way too high to make sense for citizens in poor authoritarian counties. The average transaction fee during slow periods is about $5 and it jumps to $20 whenever there is load on the network. And the lightning network is a poor solution to this because the LN requires a lot of capital to fund channels, something poor people explicitly don't have. Finally, the fact that Bitcoin proponents have…

> The average transaction fee during slow periods is about $5 and it jumps to $20 whenever there is load on the network. When people say this, do they mean $5/$20 per bitcoin or per any transaction whatever size?

That is the average fee across all transactions.

Transaction fees are per kb of data so more complex transactions pay more. The amount transfered is irrelevant.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#276

Post by post_from_work »

cemerick wrote: post #176
glenvdb wrote: post #51

A lot of the "Common Objections" relate to the REASONS people choose to own Bitcoin and how those cases make it a Ponzi. There are many different reasons to own Bitcoin, however the author seems to only view it through the lens of someone living in a wealthy and developed country with financial stability. The properties of it being difficult/impossible to confiscate and its privacy make it valuable in oppressive regi…

"Bitcoin privacy" is a contradiction in terms, as has been repeatedly proven. You set up a scene of a refugee "storing their wealth in Bitcoin", but it begs the question: where are these refugees with substantial wealth they are looking to exfiltrate? Typical refugees are emigrating from locales where they were earning dollars per day. The use case of shielding hoarded wealth during a journey to a freer locale is a b…

>>>but it begs the question: where are these refugees with substantial wealth they are looking to exfiltrate? Typical refugees are emigrating from locales where they were earning dollars per day. The use case of shielding hoarded wealth during a journey to a freer locale is a blinkered fantasy.

African migrants trying to cross the US southern border, on the low end. Airfare from West Africa isn't cheap. In this article[1], one migrant says the trip had cost her $5,000. It takes some assets to pull that off, and some of that is probably kept on their person for the duration of the journey. A microSD card in a condom in a....sensitive location....is not likely to be detected if/when narco-smuggler cartels shake you down for cash.

At the high end....government kleptocrats fleeing Afghanistan. Supposedly President Ashraf Ghani and his family had to leave piles of cash because they couldn't carry it all when he boarded a helicopter.[2] Too bad they didn't convert to stablecoins and store them on a wallet on a thumb drive.

[1]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-africa/u-...

[2]https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/russia-says-afgha...

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#277

Post by liamwire »

newswasboring wrote: post #266
lalaland1125 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fees for Bitcoin are way too high to make sense for citizens in poor authoritarian counties. The average transaction fee during slow periods is about $5 and it jumps to $20 whenever there is load on the network. And the lightning network is a poor solution to this because the LN requires a lot of capital to fund channels, something poor people explicitly don't have. Finally, the fact that Bitcoin proponents have…

> The average transaction fee during slow periods is about $5 and it jumps to $20 whenever there is load on the network. When people say this, do they mean $5/$20 per bitcoin or per any transaction whatever size?

Per any transaction, regardless of size.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#278

Post by m3nu »

wpietri wrote: post #150
dvt wrote: post #61

People use BTC/ETH/etc. in exchange for goods . I mean, I'm not a fan of cryptocurrency, but calling it a Ponzi scheme is just wrong. There are plenty of shitcoins out there that are purely pump and dumps, but it seems like BTC is here to stay.

People don't use cryptocurrency "in exchange for goods" to any significant extent. Major merchant adoption of Bitcoin peaked years ago. And at least in my area, the same goes for local merchants; Bitcoin here is extinct. Bitcoin is doing what, 100m transactions per year? Most of which are not for physical goods. Venmo, which started around the same time, does over 2 billion. M-Pesa, a "digital money" solution the sam…

Can confirm this. I offer some crypto options to pay for my service online. Not BTC because the transaction costs are too high, but Bitcoin Cash and the like.

After about a year, only about 0.3% of checkouts were done with crypto. Even manual bank transfer is used magnitudes more often.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#279

Post by bluecalm »

amin wrote: post #17
sockfish wrote: post #3

"By that definition the USD is a ponzi. No, national currencies too fail to fit the definition, because people do not "invest" in them with the expectation of gain" <-- The 6.6trillion/day forex market begs to differ.

The payoffs in FX trades do not come from "new investment money", so it fails an important Ponzi scheme criteria. Having said that, speculating on FX is a zero-sum game, which I'm not generally in favor of.

Well, insurance industry is a negative sum game (zero sum minus costs of running it) in which all the buyers expect to lose money and all the sellers make it. Still, it's a good idea to buy insurance in some circumstances as utility of money curve is different different for the insurance buyer and insurance company. Such transactions are good for both sides (as they maximize their utility even though the buyer losses in pure money terms).

Now apply that to Forex. There are players who needs to hedge against target currency devaluing and others who are willing to take the risk premium. That you can gamble on it if another matter but then again, you can gamble on many different otherwise useful financial instruments.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#280

Post by bb88 »

stale2002 wrote: post #242
qaq wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well you had to have something of value that you had to trade for bitcoin. Also in oppressive regimes the act of attempting to leave the country already makes you a suspect.

> the act of attempting to leave the country They aren't going to immediately execute everyone who is crossing the border. Even in authoritarian regimes, some people may be able to leave, and borders are not completely shutdown. And in that situation, for those people, it is useful to be able to carry money, in a way where they do not know that you have it.

I mean sure, some people make it out of North Korea. A lot are publicly executed to be made an example of too.

I think you fail to understand the power of a true authoritarian government, particularly if they can monitor and limit your access to the outside world.

* Use a VPN, you're guilty of Treason.

* Use a currency other than the North Korean won, you're guilty of treason.

* Use an electronic device other than state sponsored devices, you're guilty of treason.

All executions will be recorded for posterity and broadcast to the people as a reminder of the power of the state.

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