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Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

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Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#271

Post by angelzen »

margalabargala wrote: post #254
angelzen wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be selection bias. The [edit, was '99%'] vast majority of the time the car does the boring thing are not click-worthy. Have you driven a Tesla for a reasonably long period of time? There is a bigger lesson in there: click-driven video selection creates a very warped view of the world. The video stream is dominated by 'interesting' events, ignoring the boringly mundane that overwhelmingly dominates real lif…

99% perfect is not good enough, it's horrifyingly bad for a car on public roads. When I drive, I don't spend 1 minute plowing into pedestrians for every 1 hour and 39 minutes I spend driving normally. If a FSD Tesla spends just 99% of its time doing boring, non-click-worthy things, that is itself interesting in how dangerous it is. To your point, I'm definitely interested in knowing how many minutes of boring driving…

99% is a an very rough colloquial estimate meaning 'the vast majority of the time' to drive the point. Could well be 99.999999%. What really matters is how it compares with human performance, I don't have data to do that comparison. The only ones that can make the comparison are Tesla, modulo believing data from a megacorp in the wake of the VW scandal.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#272

Post by ddoolin »

angelzen wrote: post #218
Philip-J-Fry wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've watched quite a few FSD videos and in almost every single one the car barely knows what it wants. The route jumps all over the place. I'm pretty sure it's just the nature of their system using cameras and the noisy data that can generate. The sat nav didn't update the route to go that way. The FSD system decided to. It probably completely lost track of the road ahead because of the unmarked section of the road a…

That could be selection bias. The [edit, was '99%'] vast majority of the time the car does the boring thing are not click-worthy. Have you driven a Tesla for a reasonably long period of time? There is a bigger lesson in there: click-driven video selection creates a very warped view of the world. The video stream is dominated by 'interesting' events, ignoring the boringly mundane that overwhelmingly dominates real lif…

Yes, for 4 years I did, and what they're saying is absolutely true. It desperately tries to lock on to something when it loses whatever it's focused on. Diligent owners just learn those scenarios so you know when they're coming. Others may not be so lucky.

For example, short, wavy hills in the road would often crest just high enough that once it couldn't see on to the other side, it would immediately start veering into the oncoming lane. I have no idea why it happened, but it did, and it still wasn't fixed when I turned in my car in 2019. I drove on these roads constantly so I learned to just turn off AP around them, and it helped traffic on the other side was sparse, but if those weren't true, I'd only have a literal second to response.

EDIT: IMO the best thing it could do in that scenario is just continue on whatever track it was on for some length of time before its focus was lost. Because it "sees" these lines it's following go off to the right/left (such as when you crest a hill, visually the lines curve, or when the lines disappear into a R/L turn) but only in the split second before they disappear. Maybe that idea doesn't fit into their model but that was always my thought about it.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#273

Post by sandos »

klik99 wrote: post #216

On the video - "almost hitting" is a VERY misleading way to phrase it, I see worse driving on a daily basis from human beings. However, I'm glad for the high visibility and scrutiny because we should hold FSD to a higher standard and the pressure will create a better product. (I drive one and use self-driving) On the DMCA takedown - that's pretty sketchy.

I agree this was not even a close call, also maybe its all due to driver interrupting the autopilot, but this video still shows to many problems for FSD.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#274

Post by Draiken »

simion314 wrote: post #236
Draiken wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely curious: how would you even go about advancing autonomous driving without testing it in the streets? I'm absolutely certain that they've attempted to simulate millions of hours of driving, yet this odd behavior happened in real life, which now can be studied and fixed. If we never had the software on the wild, how would you ever really test it?

>Genuinely curious: how would you even go about advancing autonomous driving without testing it in the streets? Genuine response: 1 don't let customers do the testing, especially if you don't train them (I mean real training about failures not PR videos and tweets and some small letter manual with disclaimers) 2 use employees, train drivers to test, have some cameras to check the driver to make sure he pays attention…

Yeah, I guess you could always be safer about it, but I'm really not sure it would be enough. If we substitute FSD for any software, you have code tests, QA, the developers test it, and bugs still go through. It's inevitable.

Unfortunately it's always about the incentives and on a capitalist society the only incentive is money. So even if they could be safer, they wouldn't do it unless it's more profitable, specially being a publicly traded company.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#275

Post by theslurmmustflo »

antattack wrote: post #128
ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

Looking at the video Tesla was probably not closer than 25 feet from any pedestrians. If pedestrians were closer I think their proximity would make the car stop as in other videos. As to abrupt maneuver, EU limits rate of change for steering control and I think it would be wise for US to adopt something similar for driver assist systems.

like this? https://twitter.com/tripgore/status/1311661887533314048?s=21

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#276

Post by oneplane »

dundarious wrote: post #233
oneplane wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A law doesn't prevent anything, it only applies after the fact. You could argue that the prospect of being prosecuted might scare people into not doing the thing that they are not allowed to be doing, but with all the people doing the things they are not allowed to be doing anyway, I doubt a comparative legal argument helps here. You could make a law that states that your FSD has to be at least as good as humans. Tha…

Tesla’s “FSD” is only a little bit better than drunk drivers, whom we punish severely whenever caught, even before any accident occurs. The fact that enforcement is patchy is irrelevant — drunk driving is deemed serious enough to be an automatic infraction. Also, most of the time drunk drivers are not actually that bad at moment-to-moment driving. That’s why almost everyone worldwide used to do it! You can still do t…

This assumes FSD-to-drunk-driver analogy means FSD has to be a drunk driver (or a student driver as commented elsewhere) all the time, so always making the bad judgement and slow reaction like a drunk driver would.

I think that some form of responsibility has to be assigned to the FSD in some way (the manufacturer? the user? some other entity or a combination?) regardless but I haven't found any clear case of how that would work.

It also makes me wonder how we would measure or verify a human driver with intermittent drunkenness. Imagine 5 seconds out of every minute you temporarily turn into a drunk driver. That's plenty of time to cause a major accident and kill people, but on the other hand that would mean that the combination of a situation where that would happen and the right timing to not be able to judge that situation has to apply. We do of course have the luxury of not having humans constantly swapping drunk and normal driving, so it isn't a realistic scenario, but it would make for a better computer analogy.

Besides drunk drivers we also have just generally crappy drivers that just happened to get lucky when doing their driving test (although there are places where no meaningful test is required so that's a problem in itself).

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#277

Post by kzrdude »

miken123 wrote: post #135
valine wrote: post #67

This is near the infamous monorail where previous versions of FSD would kamikaze into the giant concrete pillars. Presumably in response to the monorail failure Tesla updated their obstacle avoidance to handle unclassified objects. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1437322712339423237?s=21 From the nav you can see the car is trying to go straight but swerves around some invisible obstacle. I wouldn’t be surprised i…

Funny, you see the same mistake at exactly the same spot, albeit less spectacular, in the video linked from the tweet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWc-r0InwVk&t=148s

It seems likely that navigation is momentarily seeing the straight-ahead as obstructed and trying to route around using the street on the right? But the car really needs to respond more calmly when doing navigation changes (see especially the car in the OP video - no safe driver changes course in a split second in the middle of an intersection, not at that speed).

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#278

Post by Geee »

ra7 wrote: post #242
Geee wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's system is real time, which means that it makes routing decisions on every frame, and the decisions are independent from previous decisions. It doesn't have memory. It just makes decisions based on what it actually sees with its cameras. It doesn't trust maps, like most other systems. For some reason, it thinks that it must turn right. Situations like these are sent to Tesla to be analyzed, the corresponding d…

> It doesn't have memory. It just makes decisions based on what it actually sees with its cameras. It doesn't trust maps, like most other systems. This is incorrect. Tesla also relies on maps for traffic signs, intersections, stop signs etc. They just don't have additional details like the others do. > After this situation is fixed, there will be an another edge case that the HN crowd panics over. Is anything Tesla F…

It's a specific edge case that the driver was testing. It has issues around those monorail pillars.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#279

Post by giantrobot »

FSD without LIDAR/radar is a fool's errand. Camera-only systems just do not pull in enough data to drive on real roads around real hazards.

For one they do not actual approximate human eyes since our eyes themselves are gimbaled in our skulls and our skull is gimbaled on our necks. Our eyes can switch their focus very quickly and return to scanning very easily.

Not only are we processing the visual information but also feedback from all of our body positioning and other sensory inputs. Driving heavily relies on our proprioception.

Fully autonomous cars need a lot of different sensors and processing power. Even driver assist should be using a lot of sensors. Autonomous driving needs more and better sensors than humans because it needs to deal with humans that are both smarter and more irrational than the automation. Besides conscious abilities humans have a lot of inherent self-preservation instincts that might be locally optimum for survival but globally poor choices.

Tesla scrimping on sensors because their boss is an egomaniac is the height of hubris. A web service moving fast and breaking things and choosing cheap but redundant options is fine. Usually the worst that happens is people lose money or some data. Moving fast and breaking things in a car is literally life and death. Musk's hubris around FSD is sociopathic.

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