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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

271–280 of 600 posts

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#271

Ha! I thought it might have been vipassana. My own experience of this (a 10 day silent retreat, not having done meditation before) was a full blown manic-psychotic experience (never having had any such thing before, nor in family history). If you're interested, I made some audio files [0] talking about what happened. I honestly think it's _insane_ that they (vipassana) will take regular people who haven't done medita…

This sounds exciting and novel to experience. The risk thrills me. What’s the fastest way to self administer?

Sit and do nothing for a few months until you go insane.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#272

I interpret the author’s difficulties and frustration as a byproduct of a particular misapprehension of Buddhist teachings in modern society. Many modern-day practitioners, both in the east and the west, are under the impression that simply by mechanically practicing mindfulness meditation they will eventually reach a state of enlightenment. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding that the Buddha himself addressed…

I've frequently seen "Buddhism" adopted by westerners from a secular or Judeo/Christian background and treated as though it's some sort of feel-good practice which lets them feel vaguely superior to other religions without any serious changes in beliefs or practices.

I saw a well regarded movie recently where the main characterized Buddhism as "a philosophy rather than a religion" which made it clear that no Asians had been involved in the making of that film. I was with a friend at a Asian market and he looked snottily at some of the Buddha statues and said "Those don't have any relationship with _my_ religion". I wanted to ask if they'd ever been in a Thai restaurant. It's such a dismissal of the way Buddhism has been practiced in cultures for a couple thousand years - but this white American clearly knows better.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#273
I definitely feel bad for the guy, and I hope he got/gets the full help he needs.

That having been said, I think there's something about meditation traditions that come from and are part of monastic traditions vs. meditation techniques that have been removed from their monastic roots.

Basically, he was meditating at monk-like levels, and if he were actually in a monastery, he would probably have gotten help at some point beforehand. Maybe he was neglecting part of his health, or emphasizing one technique over another without being fully-rounded in his approach, or a number of other similar things that would have been caught by a community/teacher in a monastery. They literally have hundreds of years worth of meditation troubleshooting under their belts, though some of it is codified in ways that directly intertwine with religious beliefs/practices.

But when you try to remove the practice from the culture surrounding it, there's a danger that you left behind some important pieces. I find it kind of scary that he mentions there are recovery groups and such, especially for meditation teachers. I mean, it's awesome that they're supporting each other and recovering, but this seems like a red flag that maybe the a-religious form of meditation as it's being taught and marketed right now needs to go back to the source and figure out what monks are doing differently, or, even better, make sure they immerse themselves deeper into the source cultures to be able to troubleshoot adequately.

I guess it's like eating an olympic athlete's daily meal while ignoring the rest of their training regimen as "religious superstition" and getting drastically different results and being surprised.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#274
Isn't this a repost of a repost, where the underlying facts are that he did a bunch of drugs, and then blamed his bad trip on mindfulness?

Edit: yeah here it is

> I was experiencing a growing sense of bodily agitation and began self-medicating with drugs and alcohol. Looking back, it was also during this time period that I had my first dissociative experiences

So, guy takes a bunch of mind altering drugs for years, admits to having difficulty controlling his emotions his entire adult life, and yet blames meditation for his psychological instability. Definitely been posted here before. Completely unreliable narrator. Meditation is not a replacement for psychological help based on the practice of medicine. The guy probably needs to talk to an actual psychiatrist who has worked with former drug addicts, not just ignore his problem with feel good retreats

The truth is he probably fucked up his meatware with drugs. The meatware malfunctioned, and he let it go untreated for years

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds exciting and novel to experience. The risk thrills me. What’s the fastest way to self administer?

Sit and do nothing for a few months until you go insane.

Ah, that's a pity. I was hoping something like a sensory deprivation tank or whatever would accelerate the process. I, sadly, do not wish to assign that much time to this.

Maybe when I retire! Thanks for the advice!

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#277

I definitely feel bad for the guy, and I hope he got/gets the full help he needs. That having been said, I think there's something about meditation traditions that come from and are part of monastic traditions vs. meditation techniques that have been removed from their monastic roots. Basically, he was meditating at monk-like levels, and if he were actually in a monastery, he would probably have gotten help at some p…

Indeed, in Theravadin Buddhism the Buddha is said to have taught monks and laypeople skillfully, to their appropriate level.

The Anapanasati Sutta, which is about Englightement through mindfulness of the breath, is cited by many teachers as "the shortcut to liberation". But the target audience of the discourse was an assembly of the most developed monks to give them the final tweak.

For laypeople, in for example the Kalama Sutta, the Buddha teaches simple things on how to develop Morality and Confidence, which are with Right Understanding the starting points of the Path.

I am always amazed at the simplicity and clarity of the teachings.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.th...

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhism is not a religion per se. I’m sure there are cults around it, but as Dalai Lama put it: if science shows Buddhism to be wrong, then Buddhism must change. Good luck finding that sentiment in any actual religion. If you require more proof, make it a priority to seek understanding of ”Buddha-nature”.

> if science shows Buddhism to be wrong, then Buddhism must change. Good luck finding that sentiment in any actual religion. This is actually not that uncommon, despite some popular image problems. For example, catholicism has a long history of scientific thought being used to change the common understanding of their scriptures. Even the infamous treatment of Galileo's asssertions about the Earth moving around the su…

> a lot of powerful people in the church simply considered the heliocentric model better science and a settled matter, and used their political power to silence opponents

It's good to remember that human nature hasn't changed and the same thing is almost certainly happening today too.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#279
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if science shows Buddhism to be wrong, then Buddhism must change. Good luck finding that sentiment in any actual religion. This is actually not that uncommon, despite some popular image problems. For example, catholicism has a long history of scientific thought being used to change the common understanding of their scriptures. Even the infamous treatment of Galileo's asssertions about the Earth moving around the su…

The Vatican runs a research observatory that produces good scientific output. Also they have a mega-rare tld: http://www.vaticanobservatory.va/content/specolavaticana/en....

Alas, the world may never see yeshi.va and di.va, to name a couple.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#280

I interpret the author’s difficulties and frustration as a byproduct of a particular misapprehension of Buddhist teachings in modern society. Many modern-day practitioners, both in the east and the west, are under the impression that simply by mechanically practicing mindfulness meditation they will eventually reach a state of enlightenment. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding that the Buddha himself addressed…

Came here to say something similar. When I was about 20 some close friends of mine started practicing (and eventually ordained) with the American Theravadin monk Thanissaro Bhikkhu, which got my meditation practice started. Unfortunately I made the mistake of doing a lot of sitting and not a lot of learning of the Buddha's teachings at that time, other than reading some Pali translations and listening to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's dharma talks here and there. It got to the place where I didn't have the proper view to make sense of things that were happening and it felt like sitting was making life harder, so I gave up daily practice.

About 10 years later I encountered the Diamond and Heart sutras from the Mahayana traditions and things made a whole lot more sense. It allowed me to get back to daily practice, which I'm very thankful for. It's not a teaching emphasized in the Theravada traditions that many of these American "mindfulness" movements draw from - although it's there - but the teachings on emptiness (śūnyatā) I found to be transformative for my practice. When the author writes things like "...elements of my sense of self became separated in a way that impaired my ability to function", it makes me think he'd benefit from learning the teachings on emptiness and the doctrine of the two truths.

This is all to say that I find it pretty irresponsible and potentially dangerous to have people with very little understanding of the Buddha's teachings get thrown into 10-day silent meditation retreats where you're sitting for 10 hours per day as often seems to happen. Or to divorce the practice of meditation from the teachings as is common in lots of modern western "mindfulness" spaces. Many traditions teach these things slowly, over the course of months and years, while moving you along as your understanding deepens for a reason.

I'd recommend taking your practice slowly, preferably with a skilled Buddhist monk to guide you. Read the sutras. Find a tradition that resonates with you personally. Know that there are risks involved and often times the practice will be difficult and confusing. It's not a magic pill to make you a better worker under capitalism.

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