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Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

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Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#271

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

rubicon33 wrote: post #251
Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

This is what most of the newcomers to WFH don't understand: There is a big different between WFH for a few months where EVERYONE else is also WFH ... and WFH for YEARS where some, or most, of the others are in office. The latter is years upon years of feeling disconnected, left out, and sidelined. The vast majority of companies even if they allow remote are not remote first. Remote first involves actual structural an…

We have watercooler chats in zoom. After standup, if organic conversions pop up, they are considered sacred.

I have been working remotely for my entire work life (11 years employed, about 5 years freelance) and I am a very happy person.

To be fair, I'm also developed some very strong friendships over the internet (through videogames), so i guess i have a lot of experience in the field

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#272

Post by [deleted] »

treespace8 wrote: post #253
colinmorelli wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think expecting every employee to sit in an office for 8 hours a day every day is almost certainly unnecessary. That said, I also think it's unfair and disingenuous to suggest that there's absolutely no value whatsoever to colocation. It's possible that we can replicate much of the physical interaction's value through fully remote work, but my experience is that we're not there yet. It really depends on the work…

The more I read these conversations it becomes clear your position depends on where you are in the introvert / extrovert scale. Some people get a lot of energy from interacting one on one with others. These tend to be the loudest voices in any office. But so many people who are more introvered have just forced themselves to adapt. I guess what I'm trying to say, for everyone that wants to get back to the office, many…

[deleted]

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#273

Post by colinmorelli »

treespace8 wrote: post #253
colinmorelli wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think expecting every employee to sit in an office for 8 hours a day every day is almost certainly unnecessary. That said, I also think it's unfair and disingenuous to suggest that there's absolutely no value whatsoever to colocation. It's possible that we can replicate much of the physical interaction's value through fully remote work, but my experience is that we're not there yet. It really depends on the work…

The more I read these conversations it becomes clear your position depends on where you are in the introvert / extrovert scale. Some people get a lot of energy from interacting one on one with others. These tend to be the loudest voices in any office. But so many people who are more introvered have just forced themselves to adapt. I guess what I'm trying to say, for everyone that wants to get back to the office, many…

Totally, and I think that's ok! I'm not intending to suggest that there is one true way. In fact, I think the very point I'm getting at is that there is not one true way. Different situations work better for different people in different roles, and even for the same person in the same role, the ideal situation may change from one quarter to the next.

Where I take issue is with people suggesting that it would be insane to ever ask anyone to come to an office again, for the same reason I think it would be insane to tell people that working from home is a waste of time/not productive/etc. To this end, a hybrid work environment may not be any better, since it forces an individual person to balance both (I.e. your extroverts are still expected to be home 2x/week, and your introverts are still expected to be at the office 3x/week)

The challenge for leaders of companies that are trying to navigate this (and one of the reasons that people will probably always be dissatisfied with the outcome) is that there is no perfect solution. You go full remote, you'll have people who miss the office (and almost certainly some intangibles will be lost). You go full in-office, and you'll have some less productive people who spend way too much time commuting and pay too much in rent. You go hybrid, and you still have people paying too much in rent, and now they also have to commute sometimes, and the people who want to be in the office aren't for 2 days/week, etc. Adding insult to injury, if you allow individual people to make their own decisions (some remote, some in-office) you'll have imbalances in career progressions, where people who have more facetime will be more likely to receive promotions and raises than their less visible, fully-remote counterparts.

It's a challenging topic, and it's not clear to me there is a solution that is "fair," insofar as fairness is even a thing we can measure here.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#274

Post by rajacombinator »

d3ntb3ev1l wrote: post #99

I wonder how a VC would feel if a startup said “we have some ideas but our real innovation comes from people just randomly running into each other in the hallway. Will you invest?”

Where do you think VCs get their ideas from?

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#275

Post by NoPicklez »

Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

As someone who works for a global firm that has been back to the office since October I 100% agree.

We have a policy where you are free to work from home if you like given that there are no COVID cases in the city I live in however we have seen large influxes of staff returning to the office.

For me, its exactly the reasons you've called out.

At the end of the day there is no one size fits all for everyone, the same way that working in an office doesn't work for anyone. However I do believe that people should be given the option.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#276

Post by bloaf »

slavapestov wrote: post #186
emc3 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect more of that competitive advantage, too! Most people don't want to give up Working from home[1] and/or are only interested in "working" to collect a paycheck[2]. If the future because of in-office work mostly consists of ambitious people like yourself, opposed to the latter, then I'm actually more interested in joining. Thanks for the perspective. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/posts/wfhjobs_wfh-workfrom…

What are you doing your job for if not to collect a paycheck?

Work thou for pleasure; paint or sing or carve

The thing thou lovest, though the body starve.

Who works for glory misses oft the goal;

Who works for money coins his very soul;

Work for the work's sake, then, and it may be

That these things shall be added unto thee.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#277

Post by matwood »

jjeaff wrote: post #255
rubicon33 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what most of the newcomers to WFH don't understand: There is a big different between WFH for a few months where EVERYONE else is also WFH ... and WFH for YEARS where some, or most, of the others are in office. The latter is years upon years of feeling disconnected, left out, and sidelined. The vast majority of companies even if they allow remote are not remote first. Remote first involves actual structural an…

Surely there are other reasons to leave your home than work and other people to socialize with in person than co-workers.

Yep. WFH gives me more time to have the social interactions I chose to have.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#279

Post by tyrust »

luffapi wrote: post #41

There’s something hyper draconian about a billionaire CEO demanding everyone return to the office so he can see their faces. Apple execs have enriched themselves by capturing way more profit than regular employees (Apple engineering pay is average/low average). This is overstepping. Not only will any company that insists on a return to the office lose employees, they’re also loudly signaling their disdain and it’s go…

I mean, they are being paid to do this.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#280

Post by nsonha »

BrissyCoder wrote: post #103
Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

> I often do/did paired programming, and over-the-shoulder code reviews. These are easier in person I’m sure I’m not the only person who has the exact opposite experience with this. I can’t think and get mentally blocked when I have someone peering over my shoulder or I’m staring at their screen. I find this kind of collaboration so much easier if I’m in the comfort of my own desktop setup, sharing the screen over Te…

if you use an ide that supports it, then having an independent cursor, pointer and screen marker is infinitely better than sitting awkwardly aside and pointing finger. That and having your own IDE and browser to perform code search or testing in parallel.

I'd use vscode live share even in the office, which begs the question what even is the role of the office in facilitating pair programming

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