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Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

nih.gov

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Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#271

Post by Thorrez »

withinboredom wrote: post #187
Thorrez wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I, for example, don’t ever have to worry about my safety because the “freedom” of others have been curtailed on several points, and I deeply appreciate that. Isn't is possible for someone to stab you? So in theory you could have some small degree of worry about your safety. Different people have different places they draw the line for an acceptable amount of worry vs an acceptable amount of freedom restrictions.

> Isn't is possible for someone to stab you? In (most of) the EU, it’s illegal to carry a weapon of any kind unless you have a reason to do so (ie, going hunting). You can’t even carry pepper spray.

Interesting. But someone could break that law. So the law doesn't stop you from being stabbed.

Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#272

Post by [deleted] »

piva00 wrote: post #235
kofddfjdfdfdff wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One can either be part of society or not. Society has minimum requirements if one wants to participate" You make it sound as if there is a fixed, god given set of rules for society. That's not the case. Societies rules are constantly being negotiated by society. So your argument is not an argument at all. It boils down to "you have to follow the rules because you have to follow the rules".

Following societies' rules is the basic principle of the social contract, I recommend reading a little about it starting from Hobbes' Leviathan.

[deleted]

Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#273

Post by prepend »

kofddfjdfdfdff wrote: post #256
piva00 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following societies' rules is the basic principle of the social contract, I recommend reading a little about it starting from Hobbes' Leviathan.

But who draws up the social contract?

Hobbes lays out a mixture of natural/God aspects and society negotiated aspects. But I think they all boil down to an ongoing slow shift of what society accepts as a whole.

I think society has opinions and ideas that evolve into ethics and morals that are represented in laws.

It’s not a secret. In this case, rights are curtailed to require vaccines. This is deemed acceptable. If you don’t like it, convince your country mates to change their mind. Or move to a country that feels differently. Or move to the wilderness.

Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#274

Post by Closi »

ithkuil wrote: post #239
Closi wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't actually have a birth-given right to enter all other countries - which might be a surprise to people with good passports that effectively used to let them travel anywhere (try entering the USA with a passport from Pakistan or Iraq and see how it compares with a Swiss passport!). This is about what other countries want to restrict in terms of non-citizen's entering the country without isolation. These are co…

Sure. But if the bar to entry is "scientifically proven immunity", then both natural immunity and the one induced by vaccinations are reasonable bars to entry. You may say "ok, we don't have yet the beurocratic apparatus to accept natural immunity in our protocols and for the time being we're going to focus on vaccinated people, sorry". You may not say "we want to force you to vaccinate, that's the whole point, duh"…

Why does this matter to Switzerland though?

They are only going to let people in they want, and they don't want people who could spread the virus, or bring it in.

Besides they are allowing people in with natural immunity too - as defined by a positive antibody test.

Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#275

Post by p49k »

pjerem wrote: post #228
p49k wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schengen has been deteriorating for a long time. Denmark has totally ignored it and has road checks at the border for more than 5 years now and other nations have done similar (although to a less extreme extent).

I’ve been to Denmark two years ago and I have no memory of any border check. It was by plane btw, maybe the checks are different but it would be surprising. It is totally possible however that the check was so fast that I don’t remember it. Do you have any information about this ?

Note I said “road checks” as in arriving by car. They totally closed the border and stop basically all non-Danish license plates for inspection. They are only supposed to be able to do this for emergencies for a max of 6 months. Instead, every 6 months they declare a new “emergency” so they can keep it closed indefinitely.

Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#276

Post by kofddfjdfdfdff »

spicybright wrote: post #248
kofddfjdfdfdff wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the people who are worried can simply get vaccinated themselves. There may be a few people who can not be vaccinated (old and very sick), but it hardly seems appropriate to restrict billions of people just to protect those few. It would be more efficient to isolate them, which most of them probably already are (in care homes or hospitals).

Vaccines aren't 100% bullet proof. The few people effected are still people. If you were one of them, wouldn't you be fairly distraught by your point of view?

But what about the people who died from the vaccine? They don't bother you at all? I think their relatives are pretty distraught right now.

Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#277

Post by kofddfjdfdfdff »

p49k wrote: post #251
kofddfjdfdfdff wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a harmless vaccine. You want to mandate vaccinating people who are at no risk from the disease, and expose them to unnecessary risks. And that means children - all to protect sick people who for the most part are already isolated. They are in hospitals or sick people homes, where you can protect them in other ways. Also the comparison with other vaccines does not automatically make sense. All vaccines are no…

First of all it’s entirely false that it’s just “sick and old” people affected; there are also children and young adults with immune disorders who can live somewhat normal lives today because of minor sacrifices from others such as vaccinations. Secondly, sick and old people are also human beings who deserve consideration. We mandate that people take all kinds of minor risks in life; that’s always been part of being…

There is a nonzero risk to the vaccination. I really don't understand why you consider the plight of the people who can't get vaccinated, and dismiss the plight of the people who die or come down with severe disabilities from the vaccination.

Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#278

Post by kofddfjdfdfdff »

ben_bai wrote: post #242
kofddfjdfdfdff wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a harmless vaccine. You want to mandate vaccinating people who are at no risk from the disease, and expose them to unnecessary risks. And that means children - all to protect sick people who for the most part are already isolated. They are in hospitals or sick people homes, where you can protect them in other ways. Also the comparison with other vaccines does not automatically make sense. All vaccines are no…

> At least in my country, so far recommendations for vaccinations had been "conservative" to only vaccinate against things that seem especially risky. Well then good news, COVID-19 is "especially risky".

I should have added - risky for the person who might contract the disease.

In any case, yes, both disease and vaccination have risks, that should be weighed against each other. Matters are complicated because risks differ among different age groups.

Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#279

Post by [deleted] »

thwarted wrote: post #232
kofddfjdfdfdff wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One can either be part of society or not. Society has minimum requirements if one wants to participate" You make it sound as if there is a fixed, god given set of rules for society. That's not the case. Societies rules are constantly being negotiated by society. So your argument is not an argument at all. It boils down to "you have to follow the rules because you have to follow the rules".

Those requirements are welcome to be negotiated. But negotiation often isn't occurring in good faith. There's way too much flat-earth- holocaust-denial- style arguments from those who "just don't want to be told what to do". Getting vaccinated doesn't take away someone's liberties; "I don't want to be told what to do" is not an argument against vaccination. Many of these people are just making noise, and it's getting…

[deleted]

Re: Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

#280

Post by kofddfjdfdfdff »

prepend wrote: post #273
kofddfjdfdfdff wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But who draws up the social contract?

Hobbes lays out a mixture of natural/God aspects and society negotiated aspects. But I think they all boil down to an ongoing slow shift of what society accepts as a whole. I think society has opinions and ideas that evolve into ethics and morals that are represented in laws. It’s not a secret. In this case, rights are curtailed to require vaccines. This is deemed acceptable. If you don’t like it, convince your count…

Why do you say it is "deemed acceptable", if there is an ongoing discussion about it?
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