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PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

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Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#271

Post by danShumway »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #260
danShumway wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

:shrug: I don't have a bank app installed on my phone right now. And there are absolutely going to be Open Source 2FA apps being built for Pinephone, so I'm good there. Currently, I don't use a banking app because I don't trust my bank to have that level of access to my phone with a proprietary app, and because my bank's app isn't particularly good in the first place. So I'm not really losing out by using Pinephone.…

The PinePhone is just like an ordinary desktop Linux computer in the sense that there is a terminal right there, and you can run any shell-based apps you want. That means that instead of waiting for NewPipe to be ported, you could just use youtube-dl.

Right, that's part of what's exciting about it.

To develop apps for Android I have to set up an emulator, dev environment, learn a bunch of extra ropes, package everything. But I can throw together some bash scripts in a day, it really opens up the possibilities to solve a lot of my own problems.

Compare that with something like Windows Phone. Not having apps there is a serious problem, because I don't necessarily want to pull out C# and build an entire app to fix every issue I have.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#272

Post by entropicdrifter »

zepto wrote: post #210
entropicdrifter wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are right that just competing with it directly would fail. Even Android is failing at that. ...What? Citation needed. Android by far accounts for the majority (85%) of smartphones not just worldwide but even in nearly all wealthy countries other than the US, Canada and Japan. https://www.mobileapps.com/blog/android-vs-ios-market-share#...

Look at profitability and developer attention in the app ecosystem.

In terms of raw profits, sure, Apple makes more off of its app ecosystem than Google does off of Android, but in terms of health of the app ecosystem itself, the Google Play app store accounted for 20 billion out of the combined total of 28.4 billion app downloads in 2018 ( https://www.techaheadcorp.com/blog/android-vs-ios/ ). I'd hardly call that failing, more like 'utterly dominating'

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#273

Post by ddevault »

imwillofficial wrote: post #262
ddevault wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This will be a tiny niche phone Yes. So what?

He is politely refuting your point. “The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user.” I will be more direct for your benefit. Not only are you wrong. You’re wrong on a scale so large, 100 years ago the average person had never thought of numbers that high. Not only is the commercial App Store system working for users, it’s working for billions of them. Billions of humans are cool with it. You…

They might be "cool with it", but only out of ignorance that there are better models. Your argument boils down to "might makes right".

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#274

Post by ddevault »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #261
jordache wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not everyone wants their phones commercialized. While your statement is technically correct, the number of users falling into that category, and would go the extra effort to ensure a non-commercialized day to day phone is usable, is infinitesimally small. Most users embrace the convenience associated with the commercial solution. This will be a tiny niche phone

I think the problem here is liability. If I buy a phone from you, and then download an app that bricks it, I want my money back from you. Yes, you can argue that I'm responsible for that, but consumer protection laws will apply, and there's going to be a court case, possibly even a class action suit. Too many uneducated users who refuse to take personal responsibility for their actions. Yes, it's not ideal, but this…

That... is not what's happening here. That narrative is bordering on delusional.

App distributiors are distributing malware. The vendors and the app developers are spying on you because it's profitable to sell your data. They keep walled gardens so that they get their 30% cut of every transaction. They are doing it in the service of their financial interests, which also motivates everything else they do.

The idea that they're doing it out of some kind of charitable desire to keep the user's phone working is ridiculous.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#275

Post by marcus_holmes »

ddevault wrote: post #274
marcus_holmes wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem here is liability. If I buy a phone from you, and then download an app that bricks it, I want my money back from you. Yes, you can argue that I'm responsible for that, but consumer protection laws will apply, and there's going to be a court case, possibly even a class action suit. Too many uneducated users who refuse to take personal responsibility for their actions. Yes, it's not ideal, but this…

That... is not what's happening here. That narrative is bordering on delusional. App distributiors are distributing malware. The vendors and the app developers are spying on you because it's profitable to sell your data. They keep walled gardens so that they get their 30% cut of every transaction. They are doing it in the service of their financial interests, which also motivates everything else they do. The idea tha…

and yet, that is literally the reason they say that they're doing this

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#276

Post by akerl_ »

ddevault wrote: post #273
imwillofficial wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is politely refuting your point. “The commercial app store model does not work, at least not for the user.” I will be more direct for your benefit. Not only are you wrong. You’re wrong on a scale so large, 100 years ago the average person had never thought of numbers that high. Not only is the commercial App Store system working for users, it’s working for billions of them. Billions of humans are cool with it. You…

They might be "cool with it", but only out of ignorance that there are better models. Your argument boils down to "might makes right".

I am an informed user who is cool with commercial app stores. The response above, which you replied to, is pretty toxic and I don’t agree with the level of vitriol they seem to have, but please don’t paint with such a broad brush. Being cool with commercial ecosystems is not only a product of ignorance.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#277

Post by def_true_false »

cesarb wrote: post #93
danShumway wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already use Linux with my bank and when I'm interacting with my government. And unlike on Android, the barrier of entry for me to write apps and set up quick solutions to problems is much lower. I don't need to run my code on a completely separate environment with no overlap. Emulation is going to be easier. I don't need to install Eclipse or whatever the heck Android devs tolerate now. That's part of the point of…

> I already use Linux with my bank and when I'm interacting with my government. I also use Linux with my bank. All banks I know of in my country require you to install an invasive "security software" (warsaw), even when you're using the web browser; some also require the phone app to be used as a second factor (for instance, one bank generates a dynamically changing QR code after you enter your password; you have to…

> All banks I know of in my country require you to install an invasive "security software"

Is this meant to be taken literally? I would be surprised if e.g. mBank didn't work with SMS as the sole enabled 2FA.

Personally, I would rather have an extra Android phone for cases like this, as well as for the times when one has to make an actual phone call, though. I wouldn't expect the call quality on the pinephone to be anything to write home about, even if the software was all mature already.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#278

Post by def_true_false »

Freak_NL wrote: post #67
amelius wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point was: if it doesn't change the duopoly then who will write apps for the open platform? Not banks. Not governments. They will keep on developing only for Android and iOS. And people with a pinephone will have a great phone with a great OS, but with a shitty selection of apps.

It's not even the lack of apps directly but the effect of not having one of the two supported OSes. For example, the Dutch government is slowly pushing everyone to either use their authentication app (for DigiD, the national digital government authentication service), or just stop using digital government services all together and just digitally mandate friends or family to handle your digital affairs. This latter op…

> We somehow managed to get through the phase where Microsoft Windows was a hard requirement on your computer for compatibility reasons

This almost made me spill my drink ))

Is it so much better in the Netherlands, or do you just not get to interact with government bureaucracy much? Trying to e.g. get a building permit over here without using MS Office and Windows is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy...

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#279

Post by zepto »

entropicdrifter wrote: post #272
zepto wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at profitability and developer attention in the app ecosystem.

In terms of raw profits, sure, Apple makes more off of its app ecosystem than Google does off of Android, but in terms of health of the app ecosystem itself, the Google Play app store accounted for 20 billion out of the combined total of 28.4 billion app downloads in 2018 ( https://www.techaheadcorp.com/blog/android-vs-ios/ ). I'd hardly call that failing, more like 'utterly dominating'

If that’s true, it means almost nobody pays for any software on Android.

The fact a lot of people download free apps is pretty much meaningless.

You may as well say a lot of people visit websites on Android.

Re: PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder

#280

Post by fouric »

anoncake wrote: post #142
viro wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>financial incentive ? ... financial incentives is the motivation for most labor.

Financial incentives redirect labour from useful to profitable activities.

...and, since many (not all) profitable activities turn out to be useful, financial incentives still end up incentivizing useful activities. For instance: [IDE company] employees are incentivized to develop [IDE], I buy [IDE], [company] makes a profit, and the value that I get out of [IDE] means that their activities were useful. Good stuff.
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