Live data from Hacker News

Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

latimes.com

271–280 of 488 posts

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#271
post #6

I'm leaving San Francisco next month also. I just see no reason to continue living here. The weather is nice in California, but the city is so mismanaged it's a joke. The homelessness has been an issue for decades now and local politicians always talk about it, but what do they actually do to help? I genuinely have no clue where the high taxes go. I just find it so ironic that San Francisco is a bastion of liberalism…

People of San Francisco passed a law t̶o̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶r̶o̶b̶b̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶$̶1̶0̶0̶0̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶f̶i̶l̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶p̶s̶.̶ They also expect safe neighborhoods. You can't have both. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26040812 Liberal policies such as this does not solve the actual problem. Instead of providing food and shelter to the poor, perhaps st…

> Instead of providing food and shelter to the poor, perhaps starting an infrastructure program to employ these people and fix the damn roads, they empower the poor to go rampage stores to survive.

Why not both?

"In 2013, the Utah Housing and Community Development Division reported that the cost of emergency room treatment and jail time averaged over $16,000 a year per homeless person, while the cost of providing a fully subsidized apartment was only $11,000."[0]

The author quoted above makes an excellent case – multiple times – for reducing cost to society if we'd just spend the money to get people off the street in a chapter titled, Criminalizing Homelessness. Think of the number of hours spent by police responding to calls related to homelessness and what social ills it creates. Consider that there are functional individuals who want to contribute to society, but medical bills or a run of bad luck has created circumstances under which this is impossible. Getting those people back into the economy could be useful.

I'm not saying this addresses other issues, such as mental illness. There's quite a lot of services that would be needed there, as well. Also, job training, etc. Another chapter, We Called for Help, and They Killed My Son, deals with the first part.

There's also the problem of addiction among the unhoused. There's a chapter on that as well. I've spot-checked info in the book a number of times and found the information to be well researched. According to the chapter, The War on Drugs, what we've been doing to combat drug use is an even more colossal failure and cash sink than probably most of us realize (assuming that you already think it's a failure).

The book has me convinced that it's cheaper for society, overall, to just pay to help people rather than funding the punitive system that's currently in place.

[0] The End of Policing, by Alex S. Vitale pg 97 ^^ This book is excellent. I've already bought copies for three people who are close to me who I think will be open to its message.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I witnessed a theft last week where a fellow just walked out with a load of merchandise whilst paying customers counted their coins. The initial social response among the bystanders and customers was alarm. "What just happened!?" Employees responded: "Let it go, it happens all the time." The impact on the "social bond" of society became suddenly clarified. We live in a lawless society. Those that follow the laws are…

Shoplifting is tough because it can often be cheaper for the store to write it off than to sufficiently improve security. I think a misdemeanor for theft is fine, but I agree that these laws should be enforced.

It's unlikely that a shop would seek enforcement if it could result in a violent altercation and scare away customers. Likewise police are more likely to expect violence if they are only called in dire emergencies.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend lived in SF for 3 years, then left for a year. He called me to say, “dude what happened to SF? Apparently it’s all shit and needles now.” I had to explain to him that nothing has changed. He was just reading sensationalized media. I live in SF, I would like the city cleaned up, more accountability for taxes, more focus on tax payers over homeless. But at the same time, SF represents liberalism in the US so…

> The mayor of Miami literally bought a billboard right now begging people to go to his city. Going on a bit of a tangent here, but I moved to central FL a couple years ago and I tend to browse jobs from time to time just to see whats around me, so while I don't live in Miami, specifically, I have looked around. Looking at Florida is weird, compared to some other places I've been, the market in FL seems rather disapp…

Yeah I don't really get what's happening with Florida either. The state has more population than New York yet is beaten out in the tech sector by what would normally be seen as hill-billy fly-over states. Not even the space coast has a lot going on, though I guess the market for space-stable software is kinda limited.

At least housing is cheap enough you can stumble into a 3b2b with a pool and a 20 minute commute to the city on a 80k salary

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference?

Not OP but Intelligence is having knowledge (think book knowledge ) Bright is like sharp. (think street smart or think things through that are complexed) I have friends that I consider very intelligent that are not bright. One makes $200k as an actuary but can't figure out how to talk to his kids in a way that sounds human/normal.

That does not seem to be the typical definition of intelligence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence#Definitions

Intelligence is usually defined in terms of adaptability, ability to learn, solve problems, etc.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re imagining crime and homelessness, that’s not exactly what I mean by “weirdness” – those are problems that San Francisco needs to fix... and will probably always need to fix.

SF’s homeless problem is out of control in a way that it isn’t in most large cities. You can’t say “that’s just life”.

SF's homeless problem is the US's homeless problem. Talk to people camping on the sidewalk and each one will tell you a different story, but with common themes: horrible home situation in a different state, crime -> prison -> loss of work opportunity, depression & drug abuse. These are suffering people that the American People have decided to let suffer. Yes, SF has enough money to get them all off the streets and into housing and only does that for half of them. But SF doesn't deserve all the blame.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#276
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exodus from NY was pretty remarkable and widely commented on. It was devastating for the state and led to the bankruptcy of NYC.

And...where is NYC today? Definitely not a desolate bankrupt city with falling property values. Also, San Francisco and the Bay Area are definitely not immune to the boom-bust cycle, there have been busts before and there will be busts again, just like any other boom towns.

>Where is NYC?

Mostly boarded up

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#277
post #6

I'm leaving San Francisco next month also. I just see no reason to continue living here. The weather is nice in California, but the city is so mismanaged it's a joke. The homelessness has been an issue for decades now and local politicians always talk about it, but what do they actually do to help? I genuinely have no clue where the high taxes go. I just find it so ironic that San Francisco is a bastion of liberalism…

What people call "homelessness", are different (yet overlapping) problems that can be mitigated separately: 1) Public urination / defecation: There is a need for more public bathrooms. That's cheaper than spending millions of dollars cleaning poop and urine from the streets. 2) Public intoxication and substance abuse: Decriminalizing drugs and letting people get as intoxicated as they want is not a responsible approa…

I support opening up more public restrooms but those are extremely expensive to maintain and secure in areas with large homeless populations. People use them for drug dealing and prostitution, and vandalism is constant.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#278

I’ve lived in San Francisco for about ten years and I’ve never been more excited about the future of this city. We have an incredible opportunity to build a city that works for everyone and not just a glorified dorm room complex for young tech workers. The next few years are looking very good!

Hats off to your optimism, but having lived in SF it looks the govt has only gotten more dysfunctional. It was never about “building a city that works for everyone” and good luck on changing that.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#279
post #188

I’ve thought about this quite carefully, and I’m convinced we need to kick California out of the union. There is too big of an impedance mismatch with the rest of the country, and it creates and exports too much economic inequality. The usual retort to this is “what will you do without California’s economic engine?” And that’s a fair point—America without California will be less wealthy. But that will be fine; and in…

As Portland is in Oregon, and Jeff Bezos is in Washington, could the proposal be to have CA, OR, and WA become their own country?

WA and OR yes, but only the part west of Cascades. The parts of these states east of Cascades are totally unlike the ones west of them. For Oregon, actually, Portland area is totally unlike the rest of Oregon culturally, so southern Oregon would also probably prefer to stay with the Union instead of leaving along CA and western WA.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#280
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "special brand of lawlessness" includes having hit an all-time-low robbery rate in 2019, the latest data available.

San Francisco high in property crime but low in arrests: "San Francisco has by far the highest property crime rate in California, with more than twice the number of reported thefts per capita than Los Angeles or Santa Clara counties, according to a new report by the Public Policy Institute of California. And when it comes to arrests, San Francisco is 50th out of the state’s 58 counties." https://www.sfchronicle.com/b…

It’s always a bit problematic to compare SF County to other counties like LA. SF City and County are the same geographical area where, Los Angles City and Los Angeles county are not. LA county includes 60+ suburbs. Santa Clara county has San Jose metro but also 14 suburbs.

Put it this way LA county is 4000 square miles, Santa Clara is 1300. San Francisco is 47. I bet if you target the most urban areas of those counties the numbers get a lot closer.

Post reply on HN