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Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

nytimes.com

271–280 of 410 posts

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I just want to learn how to write compliers and how a MOSFET works, but you want me to take university-level theater? I could learn theater on my own if I wanted to. Ya, and the acting students can learn about "compliers" online too. Outside of a garage startup, an engineer is useless if they cannot integrate into a larger team through the spoken and written word. I've run into BS students who haven't read a book…

while communication skills are essential, needing a theatre program is a stretch. Students should just join a toastmasters

I was required to take public speaking as part of my degree.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#272

It would be interesting if colleges offered a reduced or free tuition in exchange for future earnings. That might incentivize colleges to only offer certain degrees, help with job placements, keep the quality of learning high, etc.

Sounds like a loan?

Or alimony, depending on how you look at it.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#273

It would be interesting if colleges offered a reduced or free tuition in exchange for future earnings. That might incentivize colleges to only offer certain degrees, help with job placements, keep the quality of learning high, etc.

Sounds like a loan?

The key difference between the parent commenter's proposal and a loan, is that the proposal ties the amount paid back to the income of the graduate.

The thinking is that conditions would be structured to better ensure the college degree provides suitable income (only for certain majors, only if the college provides certain data about grads, etc).

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#274
post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

You are correct about lending being the problem. Education is not a free market where capital is allocated in proportion to value that is created, because all of the loans are subsidized. And the government can’t put itself into a position where it subsidized some loans but not others based on the curriculum, because there would be public outrage.

A long time ago I attempted to enroll in a nearby college to take some literature courses and simply pay cash and they were dumbfounded. I had to have career conversations, take a test, take required courses, and other nonsense. It is a deeply flawed system IMHO, designed to stamp out obedient employees and not actually encourage the proliferation of knowledge.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"from a lower or even mid-tier college is a worthwhile investment " I always found this idea amazing, we just accept that univerities are not really there for education but instead a giant sorting machine to separate plebs from (rich/talented/dilligent/take your pick). They don't work like a normal market, there best company grows their production, and supplies millions with the best goods. Oxford/Harvard take their…

The funny thing is how people constantly bemoan the state of politics, yet consistently argue for evaluating degrees entirely based on their financial outcome. As if an educated citizenry will just appear from the ether. The connection between the two seems pretty obvious to me.

1. Before the post-WWII GI bill, which sent an enormous surge of young men to college in the 1950's, the percentage of Americans with a college degree was measured in single digits (Bachelor degrees then were as common as Ph.D.s today). And, yet, we still somehow managed to have a functioning democracy[1].

2. People evaluate degrees based on financial outcome simply because there is no other way to justify spending a quarter million dollars on a degree. That is an order of magnitude more than it costs to deliver a high quality education[2].

If college were truly just about learning, you could start cranking out college-educated citizens for $20k a pop. At price it's an easy decision to make. Instead, colleges have become luxury resorts with a classroom as one of the amenities. They compete on things like best food, recreation and nightlife. It's not (necessarily) a problem to bundle education with fun, but you have to justify the expense to your customers. Colleges have chosen to highlight the differences in earnings between those with degrees and those without.

[1] Even worse: While I agree with premise that we should strive for a better educated electorate, someone arguing the opposite could easily point out that the increasing political discord is correlated with the increasing fraction of degree holders.

[2] The cost of the primary input has decreased: Faculty salaries have been stagnant for 40 years--for a given "level". But faculty salaries have actually decreased when you account for "title deflation". Colleges increasingly rely on "adjunct" faculty and delay the promotion from assistant to full professor. It is now common for PhDs to do two or even three post-docs (which can include teaching duties) before getting a first appointment. Thus, a 40 year-old academic today has a lower title and costs less to employ than a 30 year-old academic from the middle of the 20th century.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#276
Given the incredible scarcity of academic jobs and huge surplus of Ph.D. graduates, I'd be surprised if even relatively unknown schools in the middle of nowhere couldn't attract hundreds of highly qualified applicants.

Landing a faculty job at any university - public or private - is an extraordinary achievement.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#277
This isn't terribly surprising given the degree of substitutability between very inexpensive community colleges (or state schools like CSUs here in California) and mid/lower-tier privates.

Pre-pandemic, going to college away from home offered a fun environment with many amenities. During the pandemic, these fun aspects are greatly limited (and parents might not let kids go anyway, due to health risks). When you take away so much of the fun stuff that goes along with college, it doesn't make as much sense to pay $50k/yr in tuition when the experience isn't that much different than your local state school (which costs $10k).

Top colleges, on the other hand, still offer differentiation in terms of degree prestige. Add onto that the promise of not taking standardized tests into account (as the article notes Cornell and other schools are doing this), and it's not surprising that applications are up.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#278
post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

How is this an example of an efficient market when one of the outcomes is to simply get a “name-brand degree”?[1] Ideally it should just be about the other alternative, namely what you learnt.

Let’s not even get into the problems associated with education as a commodity.

And (further)… let’s not even get into the effective subsidies that private universities can get through things like tax breaks.

[1] Try to justify that without circular logic.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#279
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the things you call out don't seem to be the case in the Canadian public university that I attended, the University of Waterloo. > why are all degrees four years? UW offers three-year degrees. A four-year degree typically gets you an Honours Bachelor degree, whereas a three-year degree is a General Bachelor. On a resume it'd still be written as "B.A.", and the reviewer would have to know to inqui…

Wow. As a European I had no idea that Canadian education was so expensive. Was under the mistaken impression that it was largely free, like health care. Obviously much cheaper than the US - which is life destroyingly expensive. But the figures you cite are still pricey enough to exclude enormous numbers of people from higher education.

> Wow. As a European I had no idea that Canadian education was so expensive.

It also depends on the province (most funding is at the province level).

> Was under the mistaken impression that it was largely free, like health care.

Ohh don't worry, what they don't pay in insurance fees they pay in taxes and fees.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#280
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much worse off is someone going to UMass by your calculation?

Not the OP, but as I’d say that subjectively speaking, you’re better off going to MIT, but only if you have the passion and drive to succeed at a place like that (which you probably do if you got into MIT). But for Boston College, Boston University, or Northeastern? You’re probably going to end up paying more than MIT and get an education that’s indistinguishable from UMass, quite possibly worse in some respects. Wha…

> Northeastern

Isn't Northeastern still a big cooperative education school?

I assure you that those of us in engineering know the difference between a student with work experience and one with only academic experience.

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