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Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

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Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#271

Post by yazaddaruvala »

mhh__ wrote: post #52
donor20 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good lord - on HN the monopoly comments are so crazy sometimes. What is the monopoly issue Apple has? Use android if you don't like Apple's product line. Apple is at 22% share.

Monopoly or not, Apple users (apple love lock in, moving to android is not trivial) are not treated particularly well.

I've been an Apple user for 15+ years. However, my first 3 smartphones were Android. In 2016 I switched to an iPhone and I prefer the "lock in". I prefer the "walled garden".

In my youth I had the energy and desire to individually assess how much I trusted what I downloaded. Today I do not want to spend the energy/time so I spend financial capital to have Apple assess trust for me.

Does that mean that app developers have a harder time selling me their software? Yes. I empathize, but I don't want to be an early adopter anymore. I'm happy for those developers to first build trust, then have access to me as a customer.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#272

Post by sschueller »

vegcel wrote: post #49
threatofrain wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user I'm quite happy with Apple intermediating my relationship with companies that seek to do business with me over the phone, and I'd actually be happier if Apple took over more of my relationships. I don't want a situation where 10 apps means 10 different privacy agreements. I also don't want to deal with app companies directly for returns or their custom payment solutions — an "Amazon" is way better.

Conversely, one of the things I miss about Android apps is the competition. I recall there being several (free) apps that fulfill some function on Android, and then when switching to iPhone, the apps that provide that function costing $10+ dollars. There's an obvious trade off for security/reliability, but I've still come across my fair share of terrible iPhone apps. Android definitely has a more freeware/open source…

On Android I pay a one time fee of $25 to get access to the play store. On Apple I pay $100 every year plus they are total dicks about it. The fee is $100 yet I pay even more although my currency is stronger than the dollar plus sales tax!

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#273

Post by artembugara »

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

As far as I remember it is a perfect Nash-Pareto equilibrium strategy: "keep the same price as the other side until the other side changes it". And, if all sides follow this strategy then prices are always $50

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#275

Post by Sargos »

Sargos wrote: post #229

This is a highly technical forum so I really think all of the "Apple is within their rights to determine what software users can run" folks should think about how they would feel if Windows could only run software that Microsoft publishes. Are you okay with that? Does the fact that Linux exists make this okay? It sounds like the answer from a lot of people is "Yes, of course" which baffles me. It doesn't take much im…

My post is being downvoted and I have no idea why. I didn't say anything against the rules and wasn't being annoying I don't think. I guess this topic is too political for discussion.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#276

Post by Barrin92 »

jimbokun wrote: post #249
Barrin92 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>on HN the monopoly comments are so crazy sometimes what's crazy is harping on a technicality about the word "monopoly" and then to ignore the actual issue that is implied by the criticism, market power. Even two companies aren't a market, if you get hung up about monopoly call it a duopoly. The state of affairs is ridiculous. There should be a thriving market of competing stores, payment systems, operating systems a…

> There should be a thriving market of competing stores, payment systems, operating systems and so on That sounds terrible. Myriad incompatible ways to find apps, having to give your financial information to lots of different systems you have to investigate individually, or not be able to do business with someone using a different system, apps only being available on the small number of devices running the OS they we…

>apps only being available on the small number of devices running the OS they were developed for.

that is a weird complaint because that is the status quo due to closed platforms, I can't run facetime on an android phone.

Diverse ecosystems develop protocols to enable interoperability, that's where the slogan "protocols, not platforms" comes from. This is how the internet works, despite the fact that you can hook up anything from a fridge running windows ME to a supercomputer running suse to it, everyone communicates just fine.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#277

Post by thewebcount »

wmf wrote: post #106
xoxoy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% is extremely high by any reasonable standard for any marketplace

FWIW brick and mortar stores usually take 40%.

Back when CompUSA/Circuit City were where most people bought software, it was more like 50-60%.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#278

Post by smnrchrds »

luisfmh wrote: post #257
smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

Not to contradict your point, because I agree fully, but given how concisely you put it, I'd be interested in what your thoughts are on Freedom Mobile? I know they're kind of independent, but also their coverage sucks.

They have serious coverage issues, even in Calgary, where they are headquartered. By the time their coverage converges that of the big players, I expect so do their prices. Right now, they are not a realistic option for most people because of the coverage issue.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#279

Post by dragonwriter »

ecf wrote: post #91
slongfield wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a developer doesn't like Unreal's terms, there are other game engines. If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, there are no viable alternatives for iOS distribution.

But there are other Smartphone platforms with their own store, correct? I don’t know why people feel it’s their undeniable right to be able to provide an app to iOS users.

> But there are other Smartphone platforms with their own store, correct?

But are they competing or parallel markets? Does Apple changing pricing or terms on the App Store drive business to other app stores, as replacements, or do software vendors choose which app stores to distribute with based on whether each provides a benefit worth the price, but not whether it is a better deal than some other store?

I think that under market/pricing power tests, Apple’s software distribution business in the App Store is not that unlikely to be a monopoly.

Now, establishing consumer harms from the way the leverage that monopoly to extract rents and dictate terms to software vendors might be less straightforward than it would be for a B2C monopoly, and in the US, at least, consumer harm is the key adverse impact from monopoly abuse that justifies legal consequences.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#280

Post by cm277 »

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

I think I have a better analogy: Apple operates a market with a significant portion of economic activity in several industries / verticals, yet it sets its own rules and even is party to transactions. That's basically the definition of a black market.

Black markets are useful in some circumstances, but when they grow too big they have to be regulated and taxed. A lot.

Good for Epic.

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