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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

271–280 of 1001 posts

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#271

I definitely need to research this topic more, but after reading everyone's arguments for and against UBI, I think maybe the right solution is somewhere right in the middle. Instead of giving everyone $X,000 a month, what if there was some sort of secondary currency or credits that all Americans receive (call them Patriot bucks or whatever) that could be used for necessities like food, public transportation, etc. I d…

> [ ] You have reinvented welfare coupons but worse > [ ] You have reinvented welfare coupons better, but that's still no justification

Honestly I was moreso relating it to my meal plan in college. I didn't have to jump through any hoops to get food, but yes I was limited as to what I could buy. It was far from steak and lobster everyday, but I also didn't starve :)

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#272
There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life.

I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panicking about my business. When I accepted the fate of my business, I chilled out and just hung out with my kids. These past few months were amazing. I loathe finding a new job now. Instead, I’ve built a mechanical keyboard, explored streaming, learned how to cook, read useless books, and learned how to be present.

I see the choice of UBI as: “do I toil away for the wealthy class? Or do I took away for myself?” No way will I toil for someone else if I had a choice.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#273

I am opposed to UBI. I want smart people to have more money. I want less smart people to have less money, provided they have enough to live on. A smart person might invest in books, study and self improvement. Then those industries that create these will be stimulated. That is what you want. Less smart people might spend their money on lottery tickets, junk food, booze etc. Those industries would be stimulated by UBI…

> provided they have enough to live on.

That's what UBI does.

> running out with the winnings and buying expensive sports cars, drinks etc.

I'm not entirely sure if you know what UBI is. It is not giving everybody enough money to buy a sports car. By a long shot.

> Less smart people might spend their money on lottery tickets, junk food, booze etc.

That's an incredibly narrow minded view. It is also irrelevant, unless your intent is that your 'less smart people' have so little money, they are homeless. The general idea behind UBI is that 'subsistence level' workforce at its base isn't going to change a whole lot in buying power. They can elect to stop working entirely and still live decently enough (but certainly not if they spend it all on lottery tickets. Junk food tends to be cheap; if anything, UBI will help there) – this is good, as it pressures business that can automate, to do so, vs. making someone spend their life doing an easily automated job.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#274

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

My intuition is that a carbon tax should fund energy research. That way we can stop using carbon emitting energy sources.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#275
Rather than UBI, why not add supplemental salary to important industries? Instead of handing out a ton of money for free, we could ask citizens to work in the industries with the best long-term pay-off for the economy, things like education, research, maintenance, infrastructure, healthcare, environmental restoration, energy improvements, etc.

If these jobs were more highly paid, our brightest minds might be pulled there instead of to companies whose goal is to capture our attention and display ads. And an influx of talent and more workers to these areas would surely improve quality of life, resiliency to future epidemics, literacy, belief in science, etc.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#276

I am opposed to UBI. I want smart people to have more money. I want less smart people to have less money, provided they have enough to live on. A smart person might invest in books, study and self improvement. Then those industries that create these will be stimulated. That is what you want. Less smart people might spend their money on lottery tickets, junk food, booze etc. Those industries would be stimulated by UBI…

The entire point of the UBI is to provide enough to live on.

Assertion: capitalism 1.0 as implemented in the US today, rewards sociopathy more than intelligence or work ethic ( or any other sort of ethic for that matter).

Sociopathy I use loosely in both its narrow technical, and lay, uses.

Lemma: many of the current "unicorns" lionize sociopathy under the pithy cover of "breaking things," such as laws, not least through exploitation of societal and legal zero-days. Their fully disclosed business model has been to exploit the slow response time of legal and societal remedies long enough to burn VC buying customers and building a defensible monopoly.

The point of the UBI is to provide a defense of last resort for citizens of one of the wealthiest, and rapidly stratifying and polarizing, cultures on the planet.

We are likely agreed that it shouldn't be the only and first source of income,

but it should absolutely be the last.

That it would also help prevent the absolute devastation looming from this pandemic, not least by allowing businesses to remain solvent during black swan events,

makes it more pressing, and obviously beneficial, than ever before.

For my next rant, I'll address why single-payer healthcare is in the same situation.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#277

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

I'm not sure what you're advocating here.

That the threat of being homeless forces people to work, against their will? - and that this is better than the alternative for a significant chunk of the populace?

Maybe. That seems quite narrowminded. It certainly is [citation needed].

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#278

I support the idea of UBI in principle, but I think it needs to be combined with a land value tax in order to work as intended. Rents are charged at the highest the market will bear, so the UBI could just flow into the hands of landlords, and the people who it is supposed to help being no better off.

I'm not convinced that UBI doesn't just continue funneling money from the hands of working class people to the existing billionaire class. UBI doesn't guarantee housing, UBI doesn't guarantee healthcare, UBI doesn't guarantee college. Even with UBI, the existing 1% would continue to sit on more wealth than the entire working class combined.

What the UBI proponents are really simultaneously suggesting, is total regulation of all aspects of life and economy - which is a necessary consequence, as you've noted given the obvious outcomes of UBI.

If you give everyone UBI, dramatically boosting incomes, in order to achieve the desired net gains in quality of life for the lower classes you will have to drastically increase the regulation of all prices, all assets, all economy, all consumer activity, all production in order to attempt to control the negative consequences of UBI. This attempt will fail horrifically, resulting in catastrophic destruction to the economy.

We've already solved the quality of life problems that UBI claims to solve: countries like Finland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Japan, Australia, Sweden, Canada solved it to a large degree long ago, entirely without UBI. They have relatively extraordinary standards of living, and have made extraordinary progress over the last half century. We already know how to do it, we already have something that works, and we should be focused on improving that further. At its best UBI is entirely unnecessary.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#279

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I don't see how this would really work. A carbon tax in an ideal situation is just a consumption tax. This means that it's the consumer that pays it. Rich people don't eat more food nor do they drive dozens of cars at once. If we want this carbon tax to offset our greenhouse emissions then that means it will necessarily disproportionately impact poor people. And then you want to turn around and pay that money back to…

> In an unideal world it will just be gamed to all hell instead.

I suspect that as the carbon tax incidence of certain groups changes over time they (or others) will lobby for commensurate changes in UBI (or any other similar compensation schemes).

The result will be that both measures will be rendered ineffective.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#280

I am opposed to UBI. I want smart people to have more money. I want less smart people to have less money, provided they have enough to live on. A smart person might invest in books, study and self improvement. Then those industries that create these will be stimulated. That is what you want. Less smart people might spend their money on lottery tickets, junk food, booze etc. Those industries would be stimulated by UBI…

You seem to be assuming that there's a simple, one directional causal relationship between "is smart" and "has money" (and also that people who are more intelligent somehow deserve more comfortable lives). Consider that things other than inherent intelligence might be making poor people spend money on junk food and lottery tickets.
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