Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#251

Post by wildrhythms » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:05 AM UTC

pgreenwood wrote: post #220

I support the idea of UBI in principle, but I think it needs to be combined with a land value tax in order to work as intended. Rents are charged at the highest the market will bear, so the UBI could just flow into the hands of landlords, and the people who it is supposed to help being no better off.

I'm not convinced that UBI doesn't just continue funneling money from the hands of working class people to the existing billionaire class. UBI doesn't guarantee housing, UBI doesn't guarantee healthcare, UBI doesn't guarantee college.

Even with UBI, the existing 1% would continue to sit on more wealth than the entire working class combined.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#252

Post by 50 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:05 AM UTC

zuhayeer wrote: post #121

The site used to make some of the diagrams on this article is pretty cool: https://excalidraw.com/

Ooo! Thank you for pointing it out. I've always wondered what tool bloggers used to make their neat diagrams. I feel like doing some graph theory stuff now for kicks, or just general illustrations.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#253

Post by mberning » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:06 AM UTC

christiansakai wrote: post #207

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

I have seen the same firsthand. The idea that there is a latent poet or artist inside everybody and UBI would unlock that is highly dubious. If implemented people would be lamenting how rent plus utilities are now $1000 per month higher. The handouts and demands for ever more will not end.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#254

Post by postingawayonhn » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:06 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

> Why give free money to everyone?

For administrative simplicity.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#255

Post by mythrwy » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:07 AM UTC

pgreenwood wrote: post #220

I support the idea of UBI in principle, but I think it needs to be combined with a land value tax in order to work as intended. Rents are charged at the highest the market will bear, so the UBI could just flow into the hands of landlords, and the people who it is supposed to help being no better off.

Land and resource taxes replacing all taxation would solve a lot of problems in general in my opinion.

We'd punish wasteful consumption and resource speculation and reward productivity (by not taxing it!)

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#256

Post by gcpwnd » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:07 AM UTC

> This is happening because we’re reaching the end of the current stage of capitalism and need a new paradigm for the 21st century.

Can anyone explain how to find the end of capitalism? Is there a finishing line or is there just a theme which suggest I am getting close?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#257

Post by hevelvarik » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:08 AM UTC

Something about this topic...Can someone, you know, do the math.

So what, say everyone over 18 gets 2k month * 12 = 24k per year. There’s roughly 250 million such people in the US.

Who do we tax to make that happen? Or do we just add it to the debt.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#258

Post by jtlienwis » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:08 AM UTC

I am opposed to UBI. I want smart people to have more money. I want less smart people to have less money, provided they have enough to live on. A smart person might invest in books, study and self improvement. Then those industries that create these will be stimulated. That is what you want. Less smart people might spend their money on lottery tickets, junk food, booze etc. Those industries would be stimulated by UBI and that is what you do NOT want. I came to this conclusion when my state had its first statewide lottery drawing. They interviewed all the final contestants. And when they interviewed the biggest idiot of the bunch, I told the person next to me that he would be sure to win. And that person did. And I had visions of him running out with the winnings and buying expensive sports cars, drinks etc. I was sure the money would be gone in a month. And the net effect was that a lot of poor people lost money on their lottery tickets and the money went up in smoke.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#259

Post by _-david-_ » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:09 AM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #197

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

- The cost of deciding who qualifies (and enforcement) is relevant. Particularly as you're spending money on every citizen, but only making savings from a small minority. - You can "claw back" the money other, cheaper, ways (e.g. income tax increases). - Negative income tax don't work for children, disabled, or the elderly like UBI does. If they don't work, it doesn't work. Therefore, you wind up with two schemes. Pe…

I think it could mostly be automated. Your tax filing from the previous year is put in a system and can figure out if you get money. They could even do an equation based on cost of living and other factors like number of dependents. They could either send out a check or direct deposit it.

If something changes (like a job loss) you submit a form and they send you the money. They can figure out if you owe them the money back on your next tax filing.

This does work for children since they would be counted as a dependent. This would probably change your tax filing which could change the calculation.

This would also work for elderly since they would still be filing taxes.

It would be easier to do it universally but it would likely cause other issues like more inflation.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#260

Post by TimJRobinson » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:11 AM UTC

christiansakai wrote: post #207

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

I think the timescale matters. I agree when out of work for a few weeks or months most people will take time to relax and do nothing. But when you don't have to work for a longer period of time (say 6+ months) many people will get bored of just consuming and start making more productive use of their life.

I don't have evidence to back this up though, I would be interested in seeing this studied.