Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says • Hacker News Board

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#271

Post by tchaffee » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 6:52 AM UTC

legostormtroopr wrote: post #260

floatingatoll wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hermaphrodites invalidate this argument.

This invalidates the argument as much as people with Down Syndrome invalidate the statement "people have 42 chromosomes". Hermaphrodism is a genetic abnormality, not a normal state of being.

You can thank genetic "abnormalities" in part for evolution. Many genetic variations, even those that cause disease, have been later found to give evolutionary advantages. Sickle cell comes to mind.

There is no "normal state of being" and it's dehumanizing to talk that way about people who are simply different from you. Nature is bizarre if you open your eyes and humans as social animals spend a huge amount of effort to appear normal.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#272

Post by Haga » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 6:55 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #252

eric4smith wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender is not a social construct. Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone. This statement is not about politics, its just mere biology. What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented or implied because of said society. No matter how society "constructs" your gender, you're still biologically male or female. Even with gender reassignment surgery - your'e still biologically m…

> Gender is not a social construct. Yes, it is. > Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone No, that's reproductive function. Which is closely related to (but different from) biological sex, and not particularly closely related to gender. > What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented No, gender presentation (and gender identity, which is related to but different from prese…

The whole gender thing is a product of society reacting in the laws of game theory to biology & reproduction. One infers the other..

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#273

Post by floatingatoll » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 6:59 AM UTC

mobilejdral wrote: post #212

floatingatoll wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement needs a clarification: > 13 days of hormone therapy are unlikely to cause sterility . Yes, it's possible he won't end up sterilized by this. However: The breast growth triggered in men by medical doses of estrogen is not reversible and requires surgery to correct. There will be social ramifications for life. There may be other (non-virility) physical ramifications for life.

2mg of E2 for only 13 days and he needs surgery? Sounds very much like something a lawyer would say. At most a few mm of development/widening of the areola with the start of development under. Not noticeable unless you are actually measuring them weekly. It is common enough that a someone will have to go off HRT after only a few weeks and anything underlying breast development will undo itself, but not the areola. Bu…

I agree that there is likely a much more nuanced truth here than is conveyed by the news article, and I hope that we never gain access to the boy's medical records to clarify further.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#274

Post by floatingatoll » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:08 AM UTC

blahbhthrow3748 wrote: post #175

pgcj_poster wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men pursuing a change in gender are expected to sign their name or initial in the box at least ten times in a row in order to receive their prescription This is not true, at least not anywhere I've gotten Estradiol. Also, while I'm sure you intended to be respectful with your comment, most people getting this treatment see themselves as women who are changing their bodies to match their gender, not as men who are c…

Yeah I've taken a lot of estrogen at this point and I was never required to sign anything... Agree that people who call themselves "men" typically don't sign up for titty skittles.

It seems to vary wildly; I have heard horror stories about having to go through multiple visits and sign multiple consent forms. Some of this is due to WPATH SoC v7 (released 2011), which meant well but has resulted in overly-burdensome consent requirements that especially harm those who cannot afford it. As I understand it, SoC v8 intends to lessen those consent requirements, but it still hasn't been released yet :(

https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc

ps. "Estrogen. Little, Blue, Different."

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#275

Post by tchaffee » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:10 AM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #37

> was diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder, or ODD, two days after he was arrested and housed at Eastlake Juvenile Hall in June 2019, the lawsuit said. Medical records reviewed by The Times show that the teen’s testosterone levels were “slightly high” when the doctor who diagnosed him prescribed daily doses of estrogen This is sickening, not so much for the drugging but the 'oppositional defiant disorder' int…

Castration reduces testorone. Estrogen does not reduce testorone as far as I know. Which is why transgender women take both estrogen and testorone blockers. If the doctor had prescribed a testorone blocker you might have a point about precedent.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#276

Post by floatingatoll » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:10 AM UTC

arkis22 wrote: post #244

geofft wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody said anything about "superior". Men changing their bodies to match their gender are generally not prescribed estrogen, so it doesn't make sense to reference them in the context of people being prescribed estrogen, that's all.

you're really quite sure that trans women are not offered estrogen?

They're offered estradiol, not estrogen.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#277

Post by Thorrez » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:12 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #252

eric4smith wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender is not a social construct. Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone. This statement is not about politics, its just mere biology. What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented or implied because of said society. No matter how society "constructs" your gender, you're still biologically male or female. Even with gender reassignment surgery - your'e still biologically m…

> Gender is not a social construct. Yes, it is. > Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone No, that's reproductive function. Which is closely related to (but different from) biological sex, and not particularly closely related to gender. > What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented No, gender presentation (and gender identity, which is related to but different from prese…

I'm a bit confused how gender presentation can be not a social construct but gender itself can be a social construct. It seems to me that gender presentation depends on gender.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#278

Post by dang » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:24 AM UTC

pgcj_poster wrote: post #184

There's an evil part of me that thinks we should do something like this to most men. It's well known that testosterone increases aggression. We neuter most male mammals that humans have to interact with because they're too dangerous otherwise. It stands to reason that chemically castrating male humans would also make them a lot less dangerous. If we could bring down male crime levels to that of women, it would elimin…

You can't do gender flamewar like this on HN, and if you post like this again we will ban you.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#279

Post by dang » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:26 AM UTC

Icyphox wrote: post #197

pgcj_poster wrote: post #184

There's an evil part of me that thinks we should do something like this to most men. It's well known that testosterone increases aggression. We neuter most male mammals that humans have to interact with because they're too dangerous otherwise. It stands to reason that chemically castrating male humans would also make them a lot less dangerous. If we could bring down male crime levels to that of women, it would elimin…

I puked in my mouth after reading this. Didn't expect this level of retardation on HN.

Please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait to HN. You've been doing it repeatedly and we ban that sort of account.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#280

Post by ashtonkem » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:29 AM UTC

worik wrote: post #95

heavyset_go wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Makes you wonder what all kind of shady medical shit is done in jails and prisons. I've personally watched guards ignore diabetic patients in crisis, and heard them tell arrested, but not yet convicted, people to not declare any medical condition that they need medications for while in custody, because the cops didn't want to drive the arrested persons to the hospital and keep them under observation while they're p…

We have the opposite here (Otago, Aotearoa). I friend and neighbour of mine, on completing their nurses training, went to work at the local prison. The medical care they dispensed there was far above what the prisoners received out side. And we have a good general medical system. The guards may well have been sadistic when away from medical personnel, I cannot say. There are all sorts of problems of all sorts of diff…

None of this very new, but a lot of the reporting is. America locks up an astounding number of people; at any given point about half a percent of the US population is in jail, with a total of ~2.8% of the adult population being somewhere in the correctional system pipeline.

One simply cannot build a prison system capable of processing a percent of your population without the ability to either whole heartedly endorse, or at least ignore some pretty shocking abuses. A society that cared more about the rights and dignity of prisoners would not build such a system in the first place.

For comparison Canada currently imprisons 139 people per 100,000 residents, America currently imprisons 655. Germany is at 71, France is an 97, the Netherlands is at 63. America is literally incarcerating people at 4.7x the rate of its northern neighbor, and at 9-10X the rate for similarly rich EU countries.

But as a mildly funny anecdote to break the seriousness; Liechtenstein's prisoner stats have a funny detail -- Total prison population: 12.