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One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

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Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#271

Post by vearwhershuh »

Gunax wrote: post #211
vearwhershuh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously there is a level that makes sense and a level that does not. Using the big-bank/government debt-system to manage our money supply is no more or less free market than a citizens dividend, it just ensures that the wealthy get first dibs on the new money and then the rest of us pay interest on it. Steve Keen's idea for a modern debt jubilee is more important for the long term growth of the economy: http://www.…

Of course I am being flippant, so thanks for your thoughtful response despite that. I don't know what you mean about wealthy getting first dibs on money (if I am lending to someone why would I care if they are wealthy or not [aside from risk considerations]?). My argument is simply that we cannot afford it. Any Ubi is either too low to live on or unaffordable. Want to give everyone 20k per year? In America that would…

We can afford it if we print the money, that is, it is debt-free money. The fear if we print the money is inflation, but, as Steve Keen has shown, in the current situation inflation isn't going to happen, especially if we put the focus of this money on paying down debt.

I really highly recommend reading Keen's stuff.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#272

Post by ada1981 »

effingwewt wrote: post #222
ada1981 wrote: post #179

That buys a decent amount of whiteclaw, instant lotto tickets and juul pods.

How is that any different from it going to folks better off who don't immediately need it, and thus stash it in savings, etc.? The point is it will be going to those who need it. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I’m actually a fan of UBI. Comment was more out of frustration as I’ve seen idiotic behavior en mass from humans.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#273

Post by AnthonyMouse »

magduf wrote: post #209
eudoxus wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand how that would work for Mortgage payments as they are controlled/facilitated by banks, and the government has the ability to coordinate with banks (in an ideal case). But how might the federal government enforce suspension of rent payments? Rent just goes to landlords (regular people) and is part of their gross income filed on their taxes. If you don't have to pay your rent, wouldn't we just be moving th…

The landlords are using the rent to pay the mortgage on the property. If the banks suspend mortgage payments, then the landlords don't need to collect rent any more. If the landlords desperately need that rent just to do basic maintenance and repairs, and don't have enough saved to deal with a possible problem that might happen in the next month, then they don't deserve to own the property.

> The landlords are using the rent to pay the mortgage on the property. If the banks suspend mortgage payments, then the landlords don't need to collect rent any more.

How do you know it goes to a mortgage? The property could be owned by a retired couple and the rent is the income they live on, or a charity and the rent is how they fund their operations.

Or it could be owned by a regular old smelly landlord who just takes the rent money and invests it in the S&P 500 -- which, if you take it away multiplied by millions of landlords, does a Bad Thing to the stock market right when you want the opposite of that.

Sometimes rent includes utilities. What does the landlord pay that with?

I imagine you also expect to waive property tax or the landlords would have nothing to pay that with either, but then what are you using to fund local governments?

You can't just delete an industry and expect it to have no untoward effect.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#274

Post by senectus1 »

Miner49er wrote: post #9
tjr225 wrote: post #3

Am I way out of band or does that seem like a comically small amount of money for the average American? I live in an extremely low COL area and live well within my current means. Assuming my work dries up and I don't have any savings, 3k$ would buy me two months tops. Just to give you an idea of how cheaply I live: Mortgage is ~800$/mo, Car is a paid off 2006 Toyota Highlander, Student loan minimums of ~400$/mo, My w…

This is $2500 for your family as a whole, not $1k, sounds like it would get you through at least a month. $1000 per adult and $500 per kid.

Its also not about paying mortgages.

In fact if you go for any sort of loan they are not allowed to factor the $1k into your income.

If they do that, the costs of living goes up by $1k universally and it's a waste of time.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#275

Post by AnthonyMouse »

GeorgeWBasic wrote: post #172
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much everybody has either rent or a mortgage. Therefore giving someone $1000 towards their rent/mortgage is basically equivalent to just giving them $1000, except that it's a ton of extra administrative complexity and it also screws over a few people who somehow don't qualify but still need help. Whereas if you make the assistance "we pay the amount of your mortgage" instead of "we pay $1000" then you're givin…

That's not what he said. He didn't say, "give everyone $1000 towards their rent or mortgage". He said, temporarily suspend all rent and mortgage payments. As in, nobody pays any of it. Recurring expenses are what's going to destroy the economy so thoroughly that the great depression will look like a minor downtown. If nobody gets kicked out because they can't pay rent, or their mortgage, or the lease on their busines…

> Recurring expenses

Then what about all the other ones? Are we also suspending utility bills? Car loans? Property tax? Grocery bills?

Why should someone paying the same total amount in recurring expenses have more of them waived just because they happen to pay more in rent and less in transportation and utilities than somebody else?

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#276

Post by AnthonyMouse »

TheFiend7 wrote: post #199
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any form of UBI should 1000% be in the form of benefits, goods, housing, or other physical goods. We've tried this and it's a dumpster fire. The government builds low income housing which is 100% people in poverty and it turns into a slum. The government subsidizes home loans and student loans and it raises the cost of housing and education. The government subsidizes food and then restaurant workers who already hav…

Fair but you just completely ignored the second half of my comment. Instead of handing out money, don't take it in the first place?

In general that's just the same thing. If the per capita average cost of providing roads and schools etc. is $15,000/year then anybody you're taxing less than $15,000/year is really getting a subsidy in the amount of the difference. They get roads and schools and pay less in tax than they cost and the other taxpayers have to pick up the tab.

Nothing about that changes at the point where the amount of "tax" someone pays goes negative. They started getting a subsidy from other taxpayers when they paid less than $15,000, not when they paid less than $0.

So if you want to call a UBI a "tax credit" then go ahead, but changing the name to "tax credit" makes no mathematical or economic difference at all.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#277

Post by ryanmercer »

tjr225 wrote: post #269
ryanmercer wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't be so hard on yourself - you could have a remote job working for a company in SF like me :). It took a lot to get here but almost anyone can do it. Unlikely. I'm not a programmer and have no desire for it. Everything else remote wants people with years of experience and a degree in something like marketing or only hires via short term contracts for stuff like customer service/support and doesn't actually want…

I might shoot you an email based on your contact info because this conversation doesn’t really suit itself to this type of forum. I am not a programmer(but do computer things) but I didn’t do this stuff when I got my ged. Anyways I want to emphasize that your sobriety is really amazing and I genuinely look up to people such as yourself who can make it happen.

>Anyways I want to emphasize that your sobriety is really amazing and I genuinely look up to people such as yourself who can make it happen.

To get to this length I had lots of shorter ones building up to it. The previous 5 being 69 days, 27 days, 38 days, 127 days, 33 days, now into this stretch.

I've actually found this most recent stretch fairly easy, I avoid the liquor aisle like the plague at the grocery, I stopped using one drugstore because the liquor is kept at the counter and I stopped eating out (although that was rare anyway).

It's definitely a struggle most days still, sometimes even catching a whiff of hand sanitizer will put me in that mental space but since I've been basically bathing in hand sanitizer as we hot bunk desks at work with another shift, I've not had it trigger me since COVID-19 started popping up in the United States.

I think most of my success is just pure laziness. If I'm at home and get the urge for a drink, I'd have to get dressed and go out and then it becomes a 30 minute chore and I find I can talk myself out of going.

Using an app has helped a lot too, it gives me notification every morning and I can open it when I want a drink and watch the seconds tick by.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#278

Post by stestagg »

w3mmpp wrote: post #235
bobthepanda wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Examples: - don't need to keep beating the dead horse about American healthcare - cars. In most European countries a car is not absolutely vital. A lot of America is "drive til you qualify", and car issues can easily be above a grand. You need a car to go even to the closest store many times, so quarantine would not really get rid of your need for a car.

> cars. In most European countries a car is not absolutely vital you're talking about cities, in rural places, europe is not different than the US.

The thing about rural areas, is that not many people live there.

We live just ouside a mid-sized UK town (and cities down to small/mid sized towns covers a really high % of the population). Between public transport and good cycle/pedestrian routes, a car is not a major living requirement for many.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#279

Post by Twixes »

tengbretson wrote: post #248
magduf wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not that many, because that could result in massive inflation. Sure, QE has shown that we can print some more money and inflation isn't affected that much, but there have to be some limits to that. You can't just give everyone $1,000,000,000 (1B) and not have some huge effect on the economy from that.

It's not as ridiculous as it sounds. $100k per US household would only cost ~$10 trillion, which seems to be within one order of magnitude of the $1.5 trillion we just dropped without batting an eye.

The $1.5 trillion was in basically short term loans (bond repurchase agreements) whose purpose is to increase liquidity of financial institutions that have assets generally in investments.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#280

Post by nybble41 »

ryukafalz wrote: post #265
nybble41 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Knowing the right people" isn't exactly pure luck either. People do have a certain amount of influence over the social connections they (or their family) choose to cultivate.

Let's add some more context: high school, the guy in question was a former student of one of my teachers from a few years before who visited from time to time. I chatted with him occasionally in class. Later in college I found out he worked for a local tech company, which was pretty rare in that area. Got a recommendation, got the job. It was luck.

You apparently found him interesting enough to keep up on his activities after graduating, put enough effort into making a good impression that he was willing to recommend you, and took advantage of the opportunity when it presented itself. Not everyone would. Was there some luck involved? Sure. There always is. But it wasn't all luck.
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