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It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

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271–280 of 339 posts

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#271
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”Exactly my point. It shouldn't be necessary to spend all that time futzing with tools, the tools should be there, ready to use.” It isn’t necessary. The tools are fine, and/or improving them won’t solve the fundamental problem. People are just procrastinating. ”Online availability does not scale. These are precisely the issues that digital tools should be good at addressing, but have failed to do so.” Short of makin…

If that is true, then not only digital tools, but all books, classes, tests and every other technique aside from what you recommend for language learning are fraudulent wastes of time.

You’re just trolling now. Other tools are not useless, but improving them will not replace talking to humans.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#272
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in Quebec are actively hostile to other languages in general, mostly for historical reasons. Probably not the best place to get started haha

It also doesn't help that French and Quebecois French are different dialects to the point of almost being different languages. We "offended" our entire office in Montreal when we rolled their telephony system into our headquarter's PBX and added localization for IVRs, Voicemail and whatnot using prompts recorded by a Parisian. I could understand the French French, the Quebecois was..., well, honestly about as differe…

> It also doesn't help that French and Quebecois French are different dialects to the point of almost being different languages.

No, just no, they aren't and I can speak both.

I don't know if you are a native speaker, but It's tiring to have your own language (or 'dialect') explained to you.

For what it's worth, France has dozens of regional dialects as well.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#273
I recently realized I had learned late nineteenth-century French at high school... I had French from 1982 to 1989. My teacher was in his sixties, and being a friar, had never been to France, or even Brussels. He had been taught by another friar, also in his sixties, back then. My teacher was taught in 1946, 1947, his teacher in 1900 or so. Even the audio materials were ancient, dating back to the sixties... When I started reading BD's, I was in for a rude surprise!

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#275
As someone that's studied Spanish intensively for the last four years, I've come to the conclusion that fluency is somewhat arbitrary and also that learning a language should be a goal directed activity. Are you learning the language to travel? Are you learning the language to read the classics? To integrate with a family, etc? I have mental mile markers, which are mostly comprised of situations where I've embarrassed myself in the past. In looking back on these mile markers, it becomes obvious how far I've come, which should feel great; however, I think most of us are attuned to focusing on our deficits rather than our successes ("I should have been able to understand that conversation I overheard, etc"). At the end of the day, I think of language learning as a lifetime journey rather than a destination, and this has allowed me to make peace with my deficits. I also think there's no substitute in the world for slogging through hundreds of improvised conversations, with our barbarisms in full view, and learning a little bit each time. People idealize fluency as some kind of holy grail, but at the end of the day, we're really just trying to communicate with each other, are we not?

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#276
post #78

The problem with French is that the French are very sensitive to mistakes. If I speak bad English (I am Russian), everybody is still happy, the worst thing can happen is I’ll get corrected, and in 99.9% of cases it’s not even that. If I speak bad French with a French person... may God have mercy upon my soul. Especially if I forgot to say bonjour/bonsoir first (abomination! burn the heretic!)

An anecdote from a trip to Paris, I walked into a store to look for a gift for someone back home. After making the greeting in French, I started to explain what I was looking for. The woman stopped me. With a dramatic eye roll she said, "Speak English, pleeeease." An anecdote from a trip to Quebec city. My wife and I walked up to a hostess to inquire about getting a table for dinner. We greeted her in French. As soon…

As a French living in France, here is my take on it.

Your two anecdotes do seem rude, however I would personally have asked the same thing, but in a different way, like "We could continue in English if you want" with probably a slight incentive in my tone to actually switch to English (sorry if I also appear a bit rude). Or Maybe I will just reply to your every question in English.

A native English speaker is blessed, English has become the de facto lingua franca of the World which means learning a foreign language generally is a luxury. For everybody else, it's more of a necessity, and you tend to be exposed to English in your everyday life, at least to some degree (films, tv shows, technical documentation, meetings if you work within an international team), so chances are the person you are talking to is actually more fluent in English that you are in French (and it's also valid for any other language).

It also means it's somewhat harder to actually learn a foreign language as a native English. As a personal experience, one of my colleagues is American, but wants to settle in France, so he is trying to learn French, and sometimes, we actually start speaking in French, but after one or two minutes, we switch to English. I just see my colleague struggling and I know the conversation would be easier in English. I feel a little guilty about it.

Lastly, but a bit out of topic, there might be some small cultural differences. Just to illustrate, In an American restaurant, the waiter will ask you if everything is ok at least once or twice during the course of the meal, in a French restaurant, he will take your order and leave you alone until you finish eating your dish (and then ask you if you want a desert, a coffee or the bill).

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#277
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they speak French as it was spoken in the 1600s

Interesting, can you please elaborate more?

More like 18th century French.

There were two accents in common use in 18th century France: the 'bel usage' and the 'grand usage'.

The short explanation is that after the French revolution, Parisians adopted the 'grand usage'—a pronunciation which till then had been reserved for public speeches and church sermons—for everyday speech.

The 'bel usage' was the usual French 'code' reserved for every day use. It more closely resembles the French spoken in Quebec.

But the 'bel usage' wasn't just a plebeian accent for the unwashed masses, the King's court spoke in 'bel usage'.

But after the revolution, people wanted to change things up: hence the new pencil head pronunciation they use there, which everyone says is the 'correct' one. lol

In Québec, we retained the original 'bel usage' and never adopted the new accent from Paris. We are the keepers of the proper pronunciation of French, unless you want to give a sermon or make a political speech that is...

I don't see a problem with either accent, as long as you enunciate, you will be understood across the entire Francophonie. (Well to be honest, I do prefer my 'accent' from Québec, because I don't have to lug around a dictionary to make sure I pronounce very si-ng-le sy-la-ble cleanly and correctly.)

Source: http://legoutdufrancais.org/dou-vient-laccent-des-quebecois-...

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#279
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd love to be able to watch a movie in the language I'm studying and understand 90% of what's going on. But that seems like an impossible dream given the available tools and my current rate of progress. You could try making your own tools. Export a vocabulary list from the flashcard program you're using. Download subtitles for a bunch of movies. Cross-reference them with the vocabulary list to find the movie you'l…

Building my own toolset and curriculum is exactly what I want to avoid.

I get what you’re saying. It is a really weird phenomenon that:

1) Everyone has basically the same problem (learning a language).

2) Many people are building their own tools.

3) Most people are dissatisfied with the tools available.

I have a hard time believing that there is no more efficient way possible than conversing with native speakers as one commenter seemed to suggest.

I also don’t believe the “procrastination” suggestion. My girlfriend has worked through the entire path on Duolingo Spanish. She can’t speak Spanish.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the tools you need are "listening to and interacting with people in the target language". Human language is a problem of interpreting the creative social signals of other human beings, and there's no way to automate that. With the Web, YouTube and internet radio, the actual amount of target-language material that a person can expose themselves to is hugely, hugely more available than it was 20-30…

The fact that digital tools can't be used to achieve total native-level fluency shouldn't be used as a reason not to try to improve what's available. It should be possible at least to use digital tools to learn to listen to and understand foreign language media at a useful level... I'd love to be able to watch a movie in the language I'm studying and understand 90% of what's going on. But that seems like an impossibl…

Oh, absolutely. But I think they're going to be more specialized tools to work on different skills.

For example, I used to use the perapera-kun plugin and I guess yomichan does a similar thing, but that sort of tool—but say, for closed captions—could help listeners get more comprehensible input from movies. Like, here's one I have to try. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/language-learning-...

Or just apps or social networks that help connect speakers in other languages. I know of a Discord server, that lets me practice a target language; the group just meets at an inconvenient time for me.

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