Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

linuxjournal.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–277 of 277 posts

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#271

Post by vanderZwan »

throwawaymath wrote: post #115
vanderZwan wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite follow your line of thinking here: - currently most electronic voting software is owned by the vendors - electronic voting should really not be trusted, period, but definitely not be allowed to be closed source - therefore, we should ban any electronic voting software not made on open source software (arguably even hardware) - therefore, I am implying vendors of electronic voting software should only be…

That's a lot more involved and domain-specific than the question of whether or not government-owned code should be open source. The person you're responding to is just making the positive observation that, since electronic voting software is licensed - not produced - by the government, you can't mandate it be open sourced via e.g. a FOIA request. You are making a normative declaration that it should be open sourced b…

Having said that, I think there is a more general point to be made from bringing up electronic voting in the discussion of open source + government funded software development.

Licensed products are an inevitable loophole to be exploited unless we stipulate rules for use-cases like this. Inevitable because some products will always be licensed, and mandating that everything the government uses must be open source is... well, actually, that sounds great, but even if such a policy were implemented that would be a slow, tough transition to make.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#272

Post by corbee »

kazagistar wrote: post #245
joshvm wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are all of these publicly funded? There are companies (including Siemens, for example) which build traffic lights and sell the control software and algorithms for eg car and pedestrian detection. See https://www.speedcamerasuk.com/speed-camera-types.htm In a lot of places, the government decides that a service is required and companies bid for the construction rights. Just because public money was used to buy a servi…

> Just because public money was used to buy a service doesn't make the IP the property of the public. No, but it could. Might raise costs initially, but the idea is that enforcing such a spending policy would lower costs and reduce duplication long term. Not to mention that having law and beurocracy enforced by closed source systems is a major threat to freedom and democracy, of course.

No, because no company in their right mind will give up its IP like this. You will have to purchase the company, or minimally, purchase an exclusive license to that technology at 10x or even 20x the price.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#273

Post by logfromblammo »

m0zg wrote: post #270
logfromblammo wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get Venezuela with bad government. And they bought theirs with state-owned (nationalized in 1976) petroleum money, not with progressive income taxes. Progressive taxation is how you get Europe. Occasionally, someone like Gerard Depardieu flees the top tax rate in France, the world's top taxer, but it still manages to be a G7 economy, somehow. And, contrariwise, when a nation coddles its billionaires, and lets the…

You get Venezuela by committing to give people somebody else's money rather than create the environment in which they can make their own.

Venezuela has complex cause. You aren't doing anyone any favors by simplistically reducing it to your favorite contributing factor, nor are you arguing honestly when you conflate progressive income taxation with socialism, or in this specific instance, Chavismo--which is rooted in socialism, with a lot of extra features, including populism.

Committing to give people someone else's money is every government expenditure that is paid for by taxation. It's the welfare state. It's the military-industrial complex. It's infrastructure projects. It's corruption. It's operating funds for regulatory agencies. It's foreign adventurism. Everything. Most governments have budgets that are funded entirely by "somebody else's money". You have made several unspoken assumptions in this discussion, and I think it may be best for you to make them explicit before continuing.

People aren't leaving Venezuela because taxes are high. And Venezuela's problems aren't a result of rich folks fleeing to Miami and Madrid. They are all leaving--the non-government rich, the middle-class, and the poor--because price-fixing creates shortages, and there is no such thing as a free lunch. If one pays for the party with oil money, one also has to turn off the music when the international commodity price for Venezuelan crude oil goes down. But they didn't turn it off; they turned it up.

Can you provide any details on Venezuela's progressive income tax? All I could find was a flat 34% tax on income for nonresidents, and that the lowest rate for residents might be 6%. Which Venezuelans left specifically because they didn't want to pay 34%?

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#274

Post by ianwalter »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #170
jsymolon wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who to audit. Doesn't have to be complicated, pull 10% of the "simple" forms, 90% of complicated. Simple forms would be the 1040EZ, 1040s w/ std deductions & no other "business" forms.

I highly doubt that the real code is random in that way. I'm sure there's some random aspect, but not all. If you're committing tax fraud, it's very valuable to know how to avoid tripping up the "audit this account" triggers.

This is assuming "who to audit" is even a software process or completely a software process, but fine, don't open source that if necessary. I really just want the IRS software that I personally use to be open source.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#275

Post by creatornator »

dragonwriter wrote: post #216
creatornator wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I appreciate the distinction between license and classification, does it really matter if a piece of software is "in the public domain" if its very existence and content is classified and non-disclosable? It may as well not exist as far as open-source or public domain is concerned.

> While I appreciate the distinction between license and classification, does it really matter if a piece of software is "in the public domain" if its very existence and content is classified and non-disclosable? If the entire work is, less so than if it was disclosable (although there are laws governing the government use of copyright protected work, and arguably there is a benefit to the public interest if the vend…

I see. Well a redacted code base is certainly better than none at all, so I guess I agree

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#276

Post by kerkeslager »

dragontamer wrote: post #86
capdeck wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2, 3, and 4 are made by private companies. Not government. But government pays them to develop the code. For many such companies government is the only customer (whom else are you going to sell the traffic light software to?).

Another government. The traffic lights in Chicago are likely made by a different company than the traffic lights in New York City (I dunno for sure... but it'd be a separate arrangement nonetheless). Those are two grossly different customers. USA has a federal society: that means we have mini-governments across the country with their own laws and regulations. In an extreme case, an Home-owners association can own tra…

So question: why should we as humans care if a company isn't able to sell their software to another government?

The underlying argument you're making comes down to this idea that capitalist competition is the most efficient way to produce results, but it's obviously incorrect in this case. Are we really arguing that having a bunch of different companies developing the same software a bunch of times for different governments is the most efficient way to do this?

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#277

Post by bluetwo »

baroffoos wrote: post #229
bluetwo wrote: post #219

OK. If you believe this to be true, you need to elect leaders that make this a priority. If it's not an issue, make it one. If no one cares to support the issue, find someone to run on it. If you can't find someone to run on the issue, you've got to run yourself.

What a useless suggestion. The current political setup does not allow electing people based on issues as granular as this. No politicians will make promises about this because only a small population understands why it is important. Also you know how useless attempting to run yourself is. You will never get anywhere which is good because just having one good idea doesn't make you qualified to lead. The best thing to…

I'm sorry to hear you don't understand how democracy works.
Post reply on HN