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The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

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Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#271

Post by dbingham »

jasonlotito wrote: post #43
dbingham wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's up to England's citizens to change the efficiency of England's government. Google is doing great things. By but dodging its taxes, it is forcing ordinary citizens to pay more. Or make do with less. It doesn't matter whether it would do better with the money. I think I could do better with my tax money than the US government. But then, that's not my choice to make. My job is to work to make sure that the US…

Your sandwich analogy is backwards. In your example, you would be the government, and it's Google's sandwich. If the government wants Google to pay taxes, they should enact laws that establish that. It's as simple as that. > I think I could do better with my tax money than the US government. But then, that's not my choice to make. At least, it's not your choice to make yourself. When you agree to live in a certain pl…

A loophole by definition is a problem with a law that allows people to break the spirit of the law while not breaking the letter of it.

Writing laws is like programming. There are bugs. But its even harder than programming because fixing the bugs isn't as simple as finding the spot in the code and releasing a patch. It means bringing the laws back up for discussion and debating with 100+ other people about the best way to fix the bug. And not all those people actually have fixing the bug in mind. So it isn't as simple as the government enacting laws to close the loopholes.

By taking advantage of the loopholes like this Google is acting like black hat hackers who take advantage of the bugs. They are taking advantage of the bug in the government's code that allows them to use the government's services with out paying for them.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#272

Post by oogoog »

awakeasleep wrote: post #91
yummyfajitas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of their tax money would not be spent on the specific items you describe. For every $100 google spends in taxes, roughly $16 will be spent on education (mostly education for underachievers who would never work at google), $4.90 will be spent on transportation infrastructure, $0.30 will be spent on basic research and $0.1 will be spent on communications infrastructure. On the other hand, for every $100 google pay…

What you say is true and I think you both make good points. When someone above asked "Why would Google want to pay a higher tax rate?" I thought, they would if it was in their best interest- I think we all agree on this. Now here is the crazy part of my post- A company like Google which could conceivably bring in billions of dollars by changing its tax setup, should have some bargaining power . I don't think anything…

Google and others can already target things through private philanthropy and private investment.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#273

Post by dbingham »

philwelch wrote: post #164
dbingham wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's up to England's citizens to change the efficiency of England's government. Google is doing great things. By but dodging its taxes, it is forcing ordinary citizens to pay more. Or make do with less. It doesn't matter whether it would do better with the money. I think I could do better with my tax money than the US government. But then, that's not my choice to make. My job is to work to make sure that the US…

So you've never claimed tax deductions or used a 401(k) or IRA, or ever had health insurance from your employer? Those are all legal ways of "dodging" taxes. If the government wants to collect more tax, the government can close tax incentives. There's no individual duty not to exploit tax incentives if they're open to you.

Incentive deductions are very different from loopholes. Loopholes are bugs in the law. Sometimes put their intentionally by people who don't agree with the spirit of the law, sometimes there accidentally. But either way, they go against the spirit of law and are the equivalent of a software bug.

Incentives were put there intentionally and using them is following the spirit of the law.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#274

Post by TGJ »

motters wrote: post #237

Google should pay their taxes like everyone else. Charges of tax evasion aren't good for public relations.

Everyone else would find every available loophole they could given the chance. People just get mad because they are not the ones benefiting. It's human psyche to keep other people down if you're not going up.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#275

Post by oogoog »

ced wrote: post #51
grellas wrote: post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? As a lawyer, what's your perspective on lobbying? If the laws are ultimately chosen by the companies and the wealthiest, then I don't agree that "anything legal is fair".

I agree. But practically, a government must have a way to mollify powerful interest groups or you end up with revolution and chaos. I think American democracy does a fantastic job of producing a stable and fair environment. But I'm not convinced it does the best possible job. As you say, it leads to complex system of laws that are not fair.

As a westerner newly living in Asia, I can see Singapore delivers good, efficient government and they respond to citizens complaints like a good company responds to its clients. Taxes are low, simple, and are done on a post card. I think thats the advantage of not being a democracy.

However, its not clear to me how they manage their powerful interest groups. I suppose brute force plays a role. But honestly, I doubt there is any more brute force used in Singapore than in the US. And I would trust Singapore to be more fair and even handed.

My guess is that China models itself after Singapore. I think thats where China is trying go. If they can get there -- and its not clear to me that they can -- in my opinion, it will be a more successful form of government than the democracies of the West. But they have a long way to. Singapore is a small island in a unique political and economic situation and I think that makes a huge difference.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#276

Post by pjscott »

roc wrote: post #32
grellas wrote: post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

Ethics aside, Google shouldn't seek to deprive nations of tax revenue because they benefit in no small part from that money. They hire employees educated with government money, buy research projects funded with government money, build data centers that depend upon public infrastructure, etc. Frankly, without government money, Google would not exist. By gaming the tax systems, they're not only flipping the bird to the…

> Ethics aside, Google shouldn't seek to deprive nations of tax revenue because they benefit in no small part from that money.

I think the issue that people are disagreeing on here is who would make the better use of money: Google or a government? If Google paid $1 million more in taxes, would that be a net benefit or detriment to society? Google can do good things with that money, and so can a government. But which one can give higher marginal utility?

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#278

Post by elai »

fiveo wrote: post #268
elai wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you go into more detail?

In BC, if you are a hi-tech company, you are eligible to receive SR&ED (given by the government, but you need to fill some paperworks). In the short-term, it's great because it gives your company some money to survive. In the long-term, when your actual balance sheet is red but because of SR&ED it becomes green, most companies are lying to themselves. There are many companies in BC that rely on SR&ED and as a result,…

Wouldn't that be the fact for any low tax corporation structure?

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#279

Post by forensic »

rick888 wrote: post #174
jbooth wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because Google have a public image of behaving ethically. Everyone expects banks and evil multinationals to do this kind of thing. I hate that crap. It's possibly the worst thing about our media. Mountain-top removal by coal mining company devastates 100 SQ mile ecosystem in West Virginia? Doesn't even make the paper. Al Gore's electricity bill is high? PAGE ONE BABY. Al Gore's electricity bill is approximately 1 /…

"Al Gore's electricity bill is high? PAGE ONE BABY. Al Gore's electricity bill is approximately 1 / 100,000,000 or so of the problem. But it makes us feel good to give do-gooders their comeuppance. Serves them right, for trying to improve things and making us feel bad that we don't do more ourselves." Al Gore has rallied to get the government to start forcing corporations to use carbon credits and buy them from compa…

But you're focusing on individuals when, in reality, any one personality is far less harmful than the typical organization.

You could focus on shaming Al Gore into buying solar panels, or you could focus on some $100 billion energy company where you could actually make a measurable difference. It's about priorities.

The media likes personalities because individuals are a lot more salient than statistics, and offending an individual never alienated an advertising customer.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#280

Post by donaq »

roc wrote: post #32
grellas wrote: post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

Ethics aside, Google shouldn't seek to deprive nations of tax revenue because they benefit in no small part from that money. They hire employees educated with government money, buy research projects funded with government money, build data centers that depend upon public infrastructure, etc. Frankly, without government money, Google would not exist. By gaming the tax systems, they're not only flipping the bird to the…

They hire employees educated with government money...

And those employees pay more taxes because they draw high salaries paid to them by Google, which they could not have gotten without their education.

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