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Let Teenagers Sleep In

nytimes.com

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Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#271

Post by TheCoelacanth »

noobermin wrote: post #137

>Three out of every four students in grades 9 to 12 fail to sleep the minimum of eight hours that the American Academy of Sleep Medicine recommends for their age group Do 3/4 teens fail in life? Do they develop debilitating disorders and such? I guess I've heard for years we need more sleep yet we don't sleep and we continue living. May be certain things like stress and work are troublesome and such but that seems mo…

Ah, the "and I turned out okay" argument. This argument also works for not wearing seatbelts and for using lead acetate as a sweetener for wine.

Humans are very resilient and will often have acceptable outcomes even when some aspects of their lifestyle are sub-optimal.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#272

Post by TheCoelacanth »

noobermin wrote: post #148
yurishimo wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not necessarily that they become failures but rather that they are being deprived of the mental capacity to reach their full potential every day. They would be more successful if they got more sleep, so it makes sense to give teens a couple more hours to benefit society as a whole, even if only marginally.

I don't think my point is clear so let me restate it. 75% is a majority of people. 75% of people aren't deficient in some way, as far as I know, staying up all night as teens and living a life didn't make them maladjusted or deprived in some sense. Moreover, I don't know or feel like there is evidence that high performers in society sleep more than anyone else. The whole "sleep more" mantra feels like the "eat less f…

Just because a decision doesn't completely destroy the life of everyone affected does not make it a good decision.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#273

Post by agumonkey »

digitailor wrote: post #74

Well, no one else has said it, so I guess I drew the short straw. Teenagers are most likely wired for later nights because they have reached initial fertility. They will sneak off in the night to fool around, especially if they haven't had a child yet. At the risk of sounding patronizing, this is how babies are made. Adolescence is the age when women would first become pregnant, and the ancient's concept of marriage…

Very slight digression. I can't stop thinking that modern 'college' oriented societies forgot to take biology into account.

IMO teenage perception of the world, which triggers the frenzy need to act, create, be seen; this is how I interpret pseudonyms and graffiti for instance.

A century ago, the average independance was ~16, similarly some religion have rites of passage in mid teens to signal a change of status. I think they did notice there was a need for teens to change lifestyle.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#274

Post by craftyguy »

curun1r wrote: post #233
lamontcg wrote: post #154

I used to need 9.5 hours of sleep as a teenager and probably had diagnosable delayed sleep phase disorder. Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to be…

I used to believe like you do. What I believed to be my natural schedule--what I naturally gravitated to--was the nite-owl 1am to between 9-10am or so sleep schedule. In school, I always felt sleep deprived when I had to wake up around 6. But I recently spent the better part of five months going to bed at 9:30pm and waking up at 4:30am. Despite getting less sleep overall, I've never felt as well rested or alert throu…

> The key, for me, was also modifying my eating schedule and screen usage (computer, phone, TV).

Well, now you've introduced more variables into your anecdote. Any one of those could have been responsible for your feelings of 'well rested' and 'alert'...

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#275

Post by topkai22 »

One problem for adults in the US at least, the center of gravity for many institutions is on the East Coast, New York for finance or DC for the government. Huge numbers of people on the west coast start their workday at 6a or 7a to align to accommodate east coast peers or organizations. If the European settlement of the US had been done in reverse, I can easily see a world where Virginians are regularly staying at work till 8p because that’s when their customer is available.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#276

Post by a1369209993 »

Teckla wrote: post #264
lamontcg wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I used to do that in college. Wish society would be more accepting of that. I'd likely be way more productive if I could just do that, and wouldn't have the sleep dep days that I do when I just power through it on zombie mode for a day or three until I can get back on the 24 hour schedule. I find 5 mg of melatonin taken an hour before I got to bed combined with learning to use a sleep mask helped a lot. I still…

I read somewhere (lost the source) that 5 mg is far too much, and that closer to 0.5 mg is not only sufficient, but works better. Do you have any experience changing the size of your melatonin dose, and if so, could you share any findings?

http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-tha...

Mostly under "2. What is the right dose of melatonin?", but you should probably read the whole thing.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#277

Post by leetcrew »

arkh wrote: post #250
leetcrew wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to bed, early to rise" and flat-out discriminate against people with sleep disorders. tbh, i doubt the time th…

> given that school also serves the purpose of gov't sponsored day care, i'm not sure what they could really do better aside from granting tardiness allowances for students with bona-fide sleeping disorders. Remote school. Lot of things could be learned and done from home. Then you can stagger your buses from 11am to noon for those who require communal food then group activities (art, sports etc.).

sure but, like i said in the part of my post that you quoted, school is also daycare. most parents don't want to have to think about wtf their kids are doing in the house until 11am or noon. maybe they're wrong and should take a more hands-off approach, but kids don't vote and they don't pay (much) tax. the system needs to cater to the needs of the parents as much as those of the kids.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#278

Post by leetcrew »

closeparen wrote: post #228
leetcrew wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to bed, early to rise" and flat-out discriminate against people with sleep disorders. tbh, i doubt the time th…

If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning. A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. My daily treks to middle and high school were parades of pedestrians, bikes, and kick scooters through the suburban streets.

> If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning.

i mean, according to the general sentiment of HN at least, there is something horrifically wrong with urban planning in the US. in the meantime, the schools need to settle on a "least terrible" schedule.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#280

Post by mysterydip »

YokoZar wrote: post #64
mysterydip wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't accommodating them make evolution slower? Those that have traits making them able to wake up earlier should be "rewarded" if you want to bring change.

Well, I didn't come to this thread expecting a eugenics-based argument in favor of medically unsound school start times, but here we are.

I was trying to comment on the irony in adapting to our evolution instead of the other way around. I wasn't trying to advocate any solution. Clearly it didn't come out right based on the replies I got.
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