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Let Teenagers Sleep In

nytimes.com

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Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#261

Post by darkerside »

rerx wrote: post #59
darkerside wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as likely that teenagers would then be able to stand watch for predators, attacks by other tribes, or hunt for nocturnal prey.

Sure, having some variation in circadian rhythms among the members of a group makes it easier to have guards at most times of day and night. But such variation exists independently of age: There are "owls" and "larks" at all stages of life. I find it interesting that, on top of that, teenagers specifically and consistently have their individual rhythms shifted towards the later hours.

That's a really interesting point I hadn't considered. And thanks to evolution's pseudorandom algorithm, it could be that the benefit was obtained in conjunction with another benefit (nighttime socializing), that one came about after the other, or that one exists and one doesn't.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#262

Post by yesenadam »

devxpy wrote: post #200
executesorder66 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood why it's lazy to get up late, but not lazy to go to bed super early. What's the difference?

Research has shown time and again; Humans can't think for themselves. This mentality is eminent, especially after the fact that we're taught bullshit like this from day 1: > Early to bed and early to rise makes and man healthy, wealthy and wise

How you tried it? :-) (I haven't.) Maybe it works. I can see how there might be something to that.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#263

Post by toofy »

curun1r wrote: post #233
lamontcg wrote: post #154

I used to need 9.5 hours of sleep as a teenager and probably had diagnosable delayed sleep phase disorder. Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to be…

I used to believe like you do. What I believed to be my natural schedule--what I naturally gravitated to--was the nite-owl 1am to between 9-10am or so sleep schedule. In school, I always felt sleep deprived when I had to wake up around 6. But I recently spent the better part of five months going to bed at 9:30pm and waking up at 4:30am. Despite getting less sleep overall, I've never felt as well rested or alert throu…

That’s amazing that worked for you. I know it works for some people, but there are a significant number of us who have tried all of those things and it doesn’t work for us. What does work for me, consistently and amazingly well, was to accept —after years of earnestly trying all of the incredibly well meaning advice from others— that I’m not a 6:30am riser. I adjusted to a 9am wake up and it just works. Actually just works, easily, and always. I wake up rested and alert. I’m incredibly lucky that my job doesn’t require me to rise at 6am.

It really is a shame that so many in the world seemingly assume that we’re just not trying to sleep in the proper ways or that we’re not trying with enough conviction. Once I was lucky enough to be in a position where I could set my own schedule, my performance jumped significantly. I was no slouch prior to slightly altering my wake up time, but the changes after are remarkable.

Again, I am genuinely happy those changes worked for you, but for some of us, the same things just aren’t impactful in any meaningful way, sadly.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#264

Post by Teckla »

lamontcg wrote: post #218
scrollaway wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a non-24 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake... ). I consistently drift forwards 1-2 hours / day. Nobody believes me when I tell them. I started seriously tracking my sleep a few months back, and two months ago I started to use "Sleep as Android", which has a neat feature that shows you a graph of the times you are asleep. This is mine for the past 2 months: https://i.imgur.com/PHohyO6.…

Yeah I used to do that in college. Wish society would be more accepting of that. I'd likely be way more productive if I could just do that, and wouldn't have the sleep dep days that I do when I just power through it on zombie mode for a day or three until I can get back on the 24 hour schedule. I find 5 mg of melatonin taken an hour before I got to bed combined with learning to use a sleep mask helped a lot. I still…

I read somewhere (lost the source) that 5 mg is far too much, and that closer to 0.5 mg is not only sufficient, but works better.

Do you have any experience changing the size of your melatonin dose, and if so, could you share any findings?

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#265

Post by toofy »

hhjinks wrote: post #254
Retric wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sleep schedules dramatically change with age and a lot of sub conscious stimuli. So, don't try and generalize from what works for any one person. EX: I have started to get up around 6am even if the room is dark and I am not getting enough sleep. I find it annoying, and nothing changed but my age.

Sleep schedules also change base on your behaviour. If you need 10 hours of sleep, go to bed 2 hours earlier. I used to sleep from 1am to 9am half a year ago, but now I sleep from 10pm to 6am, and feel exactly the same. The only thing that changed was when I went to bed.

Yeah, behaviors alone can definitely work for some people, no question. But as research seems to be indicating, there are many factors aside from just behavior or hours of sleep needed. devexpy discusses some of it above. Some people’s circadian rhythms are just different, and this may be just hard wired. Some people still only need 6 hours but at a different time of day, some people need more at the same time of day.

In the modern era, there is no question that sleep hygiene is lacking for some, but it isn’t universally sleep hygiene, or universally scheduling, or universally a set amount of hours. It seems that we’re often dealing with different things for different people.

As I briefly mentioned in comment further up, the solution for me was a 9am wake up, and this seems to work consistently and easily with almost any amount of sleep. I can be just fine with 5 hours or 10. It just works. Prior to arriving at a career situation where I could set my own schedule, there were no combinations of solutions which allowed me to wake up at 6am and not be on autopilot and zombified for the first half of the day. And I tried just about every iteration and combination with diligence for years. Luckily I realized early enough in college to just never take classes before 10am or I would have almost certainly struggled.

If we can figure out ways to allow for flex schedules on positions which have no need for timing rigidity, I could easily see our collective productivity rising in measurable ways. And at the very least we won’t be needlessly forcing entire segments of the population to perform at half optimum levels for half of their days.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#266

Post by Zak »

DenisM wrote: post #255

I was in a boarding school with hundreds of other teenagers. My classmates never* slept in (always attended the first class), and I’ve never seen anyone sleeping in from other classes/groups. We went to classes and were in a good shape, I don’t recall anyone complaining. There was one exception - a classmate that I believe was secretely drinking alcohol. Even for him it was an exception to sleep in. Also I’ve see the…

What were the consequences (both formal and informal) if a student slept in?

People can do things that are both unpleasant and harmful to them for extended periods of time if subjected to sufficient coercion, social pressure, or reward.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#267

Post by ItsMe000001 »

devxpy wrote: post #222
ItsMe000001 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the deepest caverns on the planet—so deep, in fact, that no detectable sunlight penetrates its farthest reaches And THAT is the point. Do you want OP to get away from the sun, so that it does not reset his zeigebers? > generated their own endogenous circadian rhythm in the absence of external light from the sun. I mean, you even quoted it yourself. Reminder: Topic still is OPs post and the reply to it that t…

I Agree with what you say. But you gotta realize, just having the time clock (suprachiasmatic nucleus) synchronized and working perfectly in no way implies that OP will sleep early.' Some people are hard-wired at DNA level to sleep late. I made that comment in hopes make this point. It is a big deal. Not everyone has a flexible sleep cycle.

Why are you telling _me_? You need to go to the person I responded to...

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#268

Post by ItsMe000001 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #196
ItsMe000001 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't, unless you keep a completely unnatural and very strenuous artificial light environment. Not just any light source either. This is worse than people who can't eat most foods and have to have an extremely picky diet, because at least they can do that anywhere and can create a stash of food. To expect this of anyone is ignorant and cruel, IMO. > Unless you think you'd never resynchronize after moving across…

What do you do throughout the year as sunrise and sunset vary? For most of us there is a 4-5 hour difference in sunset between June and December.

You should read what you reply to. Given what I wrote your reply makes no sense I'm sorry to have to say.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#269

Post by DenisM »

Zak wrote: post #266
DenisM wrote: post #255

I was in a boarding school with hundreds of other teenagers. My classmates never* slept in (always attended the first class), and I’ve never seen anyone sleeping in from other classes/groups. We went to classes and were in a good shape, I don’t recall anyone complaining. There was one exception - a classmate that I believe was secretely drinking alcohol. Even for him it was an exception to sleep in. Also I’ve see the…

What were the consequences (both formal and informal) if a student slept in? People can do things that are both unpleasant and harmful to them for extended periods of time if subjected to sufficient coercion, social pressure, or reward.

No one ever complained about poor performance due to lack of sleep the way modern-day "owls" do. I don't think it matters how they (we) were forced to observe the regime, only that it yielded the result - lark sleep and good performance for near 100% of students. My point is that the "owl" thing is environmental.

To answer your question, tardy students would be admonished by the teacher/supervisor/monitor and possible written up. After several incidents (and several escalation layers in between) they would be expelled. Never happened in practice.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#270

Post by TheCoelacanth »

unit91 wrote: post #100

> Anyone who talks about sleep as if it’s some kind of inconvenience and getting less of it is a virtue should be challenged. These people are dangerous. This statement was bizarrely totalitarian. I actually agree with the fundamental premise that many schools probably start too early. But to say those who take the other side are dangerous people who need to be challenged? Too far. Ironically, I think this Soviet-esq…

In what sense is promoting an idea that leads to worse health outcomes and higher mortality not dangerous?
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