Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#271

Post by bighi » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

watty wrote: post #267

stickfigure wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot avoid the nasty social effects of drug prohibition (crime, violence, contamination, etc) without making distribution legal. If you want to live in a world without homeless junkies breaking into your car, or a world without running gun battles in the street, or a world without your wayward kids accidentally ODing on their next batch, you need drugs like cocaine and heroin to be sold openly and affordably at…

I don't understand - why would cheap/free drugs prevent gun battles, car break ins or OD'ing? As far as I'm aware, junkies still need money to eat/sleep/drink and very few have a reliable source of income. All gun battles aren't over drugs, and would still occur. And not all overdoses are caused by tainted drugs.

Give them free drugs.

It's overall cheaper. It's safer for him and you. Reduces crime, which saves money on police.

And if drugs are cheap to most, and free to some, there's no huge profit to be made by illegally selling them. Thus, no gun fights over distribution spots on the streets.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#272

Post by Nursie » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 2:49 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

> Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries.

Honestly, until the people in power start saying this stuff, nothing seems likely to happen.

We've had a parade of experts, medical groups, police commissioners (in the UK), and ex-politicians all calling for change, but the people actually in power are either too set in their ways or too scared to rock the boat and lose their seats by being seen as "pro-drug".

We still have a long, long road ahead of us before much is going to change in the UK. I am heartened that baby-steps are being taken in the USA, but that's all they are, baby-steps.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#273

Post by pavel_lishin » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 2:50 PM UTC

slamdance wrote: post #161

piva00 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a follow-up, even though Nixon expanded treatment shouldn't we still blame him for the rhetorics that aggravated the "war on drugs" for the rest of the planet? It's after Nixon "war on drugs" stance that we begin to see harsher and harsher penalties for possession, criminalisation of usage (and this still applies here in Sweden, it's not only illegal to buy, sell or possess drugs but also to take them, if it's det…

why does it have to about who we 'blame'? Why not go back to the CIA and how they wanted to undermine the social & political revolutions of the 60s & 70s? why not go back to 'reefer madness' and the how it was based almost solely in fear and racism, or how William Randolph Hearst's paper & publishing 'empire' was threatened by hemp? does any of that matter? Not really. We have a problem now that we need to fix. We do…

> why does it have to about who we 'blame'?

Because if politicians are not held accountable for their actions, it removes the incentive to be genuine and honest on their part.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#274

Post by Nursie » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

watty wrote: post #267

stickfigure wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot avoid the nasty social effects of drug prohibition (crime, violence, contamination, etc) without making distribution legal. If you want to live in a world without homeless junkies breaking into your car, or a world without running gun battles in the street, or a world without your wayward kids accidentally ODing on their next batch, you need drugs like cocaine and heroin to be sold openly and affordably at…

I don't understand - why would cheap/free drugs prevent gun battles, car break ins or OD'ing? As far as I'm aware, junkies still need money to eat/sleep/drink and very few have a reliable source of income. All gun battles aren't over drugs, and would still occur. And not all overdoses are caused by tainted drugs.

>> I don't understand - why would cheap/free drugs prevent gun battles

No profit to fight over

>> car break ins

No need to find hundreds of dollars a day to support the habit

>> or OD'ing?

Known quantities of known substances can help people avoid OD from either the wrong thing (fentanyl lately) or unexpected purity.

>> As far as I'm aware, junkies still need money to eat/sleep/drink and very few have a reliable source of income.

You only need a few bucks a day to eat/sleep/drink, you need potentially hundreds for your habit at present. Given an easy, cheap supply many will be able to hold down a regular job.

>> All gun battles aren't over drugs, and would still occur.

But the ones over drug money would stop, drugs are a major source of gang funding.

>> And not all overdoses are caused by tainted drugs.

No, but a hell of a lot are.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#275

Post by tertius » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

ssijak wrote: post #109

moozilla wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What scientific results are you googling exactly? Everything I can find shows a strong consensus that coffee has positive effects across the board. This seems like a good summary: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/upshot/more-consensus-on-... Highlight from that article: >There have been two meta-analyses published within the last year or so. The first reviewed 20 studies, including almost a million people, and the…

Well, at least anecdotally regular caffeine (several cups per day) intake messes up your energy level, sleep patterns, etc. And if you mess with your adrenal glands, there could be subtle and long-lasting effects on your energy and mood.

Even if this is true, it seems it's still better than not drinking coffee.

And I agree with you, at least anecdotally, that this happens.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#276

Post by Nursie » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 2:54 PM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #168

stickfigure wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot avoid the nasty social effects of drug prohibition (crime, violence, contamination, etc) without making distribution legal. If you want to live in a world without homeless junkies breaking into your car, or a world without running gun battles in the street, or a world without your wayward kids accidentally ODing on their next batch, you need drugs like cocaine and heroin to be sold openly and affordably at…

"Help the addict but punish the dealer" is the Portugal drug policy though, and it's proven effective enough.

It's proven a lot better than what went before, certainly.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#277

Post by tertius » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 2:57 PM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #34

Johnny555 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of reasons to keep many drugs available as prescription-only. Misuse of antibiotics affects everyone, not just the person taking them. Plus, drug interactions are hard even for professionals to manage. I don't think it's a good idea to let people self-prescribe prescription drugs for themselves and others (like their children).

Possession and use should remain legal in all cases. This is pretty basic privacy and body autonomy rights. Distribution can be regulated.

> This is pretty basic privacy and body autonomy rights.

There are more than one party involved here.

You think plain heroin is toxic, wait until you see the engineered drugs that are created by big pharma in comparison.

Do you think I should be able to purchase any drug, re-engineer it myself and consume it? I'm not selling it...

Say I'm not even a scientist, I don't know the dangers of what I'm doing, should I be allowed to have access to those chemicals just because they exist?

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#278

Post by rectang » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 2:57 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #211

vidarh wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that some countries have state monopoly stores for wine and stronger alcoholic drinks, and most no longer allow advertising for alcohol. Similarly, consider the option of regulations like those in place for pharmacies in some countries, that e.g. requires the pharmacist to ensure you are aware of certain risks, but doesn't prevent you from buying. Consider the way some countries now requires tobacco to be ou…

I live in a place where the government had a monopoly on alcohol retail until recently (Ontario, Canada). I don't think it had any impact on sales. The biggest factor was price, the government fixed the prices fairly high (but those prices were the same for the retail exceptions, such as brewers' own premises). > Personally I believe even drugs like heroin should be legal, on the basis of harm reduction, but at the s…

I am skeptical of your don't-bother-regulating-because-it-has-no-effect arguments. Cigarette usage in the world, for example, seems to correlate well with how unfettered commercial suppliers are.

Everything we know about retail says that convenience and marketing impact sales. Advertising works, or companies wouldn't buy ads. Premium shelf placement works or retailers wouldn't study it to death. Getting people hooked works or pushers at every level wouldn't bother.

Addiction to hard drugs (e.g. opioids) is a huge ball of misery and human suffering. It bothers me that you shrug that off so easily.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#279

Post by rtpg » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 3:03 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #274

watty wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand - why would cheap/free drugs prevent gun battles, car break ins or OD'ing? As far as I'm aware, junkies still need money to eat/sleep/drink and very few have a reliable source of income. All gun battles aren't over drugs, and would still occur. And not all overdoses are caused by tainted drugs.

>> I don't understand - why would cheap/free drugs prevent gun battles No profit to fight over >> car break ins No need to find hundreds of dollars a day to support the habit >> or OD'ing? Known quantities of known substances can help people avoid OD from either the wrong thing (fentanyl lately) or unexpected purity. >> As far as I'm aware, junkies still need money to eat/sleep/drink and very few have a reliable sour…

people gamble their money away and its plenty legal. The free market won't solve everything.

I also have a bit of a hard time imagining that someone having even easier access to, say, meth will thus be able to hold onto a job more easily. Personally I can't show up drunk to work.

Though I agree with things like gang violence, I do worry about the effects on public health. Cigarettes and alcohol mess up society a lot already

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#280

Post by fifnir » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 3:05 PM UTC

coleifer wrote: post #251

tetrep wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like gambling, alcohol, opiates, etc? Besides the wealth of extremely addictive substances (and activities) that are legal (some regulated), there's also at least one illegal drug that you're never going to be (chemically) addicted to: LSD. The "we're protecting you" logic behind making arbitrary drugs illegal is nonsense. It's even more weakened by the fact that at least a few of the illegal drugs with "no medi…

Alcohol is illegal here until you're 21, and then there are rules like no driving after drinking. We even tried to make it illegal but it wasn't tenable. Gambling is also illegal or very regulated in my state. And opiates are a controlled substance, you can't get them without an Rx. I think we're talking at cross-purposes. I'm talking about the ravages of drug addiction on society. It's not about protecting you , it'…

>Alcohol is illegal here until you're 21

Did anyone ask for drugs to be legal for kids? or to not be regulated at all?

> We even tried to make it illegal but it wasn't tenable.

Neither is the war on drugs, you have to be blind to not acknowledge its huge failure, both economically and socially.