Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons • Hacker News Board

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#271

Post by kazinator » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:06 PM UTC

The situation with Thiel and Hogan shows that lawyers are are ever the robber barons. Who grabs all that money from Thiels' funding of the lawsuit? Follow the money, and that's where the barons are.

    And in this state she 'gallops night by night
    Through lovers' brains, and then they dream of love;
    O'er courtiers' knees, that dream on cursies straight;
    O'er lawyers' fingers, who straight dream on fees; [...]
         ^^^^^^^^                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

-- Mercutio's "Queen Mab" speech, Romeo and Juliet, Act I, Scene IV.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#272

Post by nohat » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #206

bduerst wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subject of the case is a red herring. Typically in these situations, a settlement is reached or insurance covers the damages. That didn't happen. Thiel had an axe to grind against Gawker, invested $10m in the litigation, and pushed the case past settlement offers - even removing a claim that allowed insurance to cover damages. It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typicall…

Yes, Thiel was out for blood, but so what? There's nothing inherently wrong or illegal about feeling vengeful. It's a natural human emotion experienced and indulged by pretty much everyone at some point in time. It's not like we can eradicate it or make it illegal, so complaining about Thiel's goals or feelings seems like a waste of time to me. The issue, as usual, should be with the system itself. Is what happened h…

I think Gawker was wrong, and deserved to be seriously damaged by this (and many other things), but lets not pretend that this wouldn't have hurt them if they weren't wrong. Defending yourself takes an enormous amount of energy, time, and money. If a billionaire hates you they can fund lots of lawsuits against you that would have otherwise never materialized. This would constantly drain you, even if you win, even if you win costs. Since the billionaire is just funding it, they don't even need to step into the court room to ruin your life.

In this case Thiel waited (probably) until Gawker had done something particularly bad (at least liability wise). That's good, but its easy to see what someone of his resources could choose to do with no apparent repercussions. Of course this is disturbing. The fact that our court system is abusable in this fashion doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned about the individuals who might so abuse it.

The article took this case as proof and omen way beyond what it actually shows, but its not nothing.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#273

Post by ThomPete » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

lhnz wrote: post #230

ThomPete wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between winning a lawsuit to right a wrong and then to go further and actually try to take down a paper. Whatever Gawker did to Theil it's not worth doing what he is doing but thats up to him. The problem though is that as extreme wealth gets put into fewer hands it allow them to basically bleed anything skeptical to this out. Furthermore and as a sidenote. I find it ironic that Theil of all peo…

He's a smart man, so it is quite possible he has some nuanced opinion that is not exactly cookie-cutter libertarian from a textbook. And this should be allowed. Siding a certain way on some political issues shouldn't require you to be absolutely dogmatic to all of the relating principles and perspectives in all contexts. I mean, I wouldn't expect this from myself, so I wouldn't expect it from others.

He is a smart man, but that does not mean his morals are better.

He can do whatever he want's I still find it ironic since his stance is one of quite fundamental morals.

Him using his money in court to get revenge. Now imagine that in a private court he could potentially be primary shareholder in.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#274

Post by CPLX » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #264

CPLX wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. The legal system has certain informal but crucial checks and balances in it. One of them is that the cost and uncertainty of litigation make it in everyone's interest to settle, and in addition insurance creates incentives to settle. A third party purposely removing those incentives distorts the process. Also to this general point, another check and balance for civil litigation are the reputational and dis…

You're advocating a flawed legal system. You're basically saying: The legal system can be abused by any rich person with a vendetta, therefore shame on Thiel for abusing it. However, it's not feasible (or desirable) to put an end to rich people or vendettas. Thus, isn't the best option here to fix the legal system itself?

There is no system on this planet that cannot be at least somewhat abused by a person with a billion dollars in resources and no ethical constraints.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#275

Post by xenadu02 » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #260

CPLX wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it's hopelessly naive. It takes time for people who have been suddenly vaulted into the position of being the ruling class to realize that they are regarded as such. Silicon Valley as a culture still sees itself as a scrappy underdog. They see startups as small underfunded rebels trying to disrupt rich and powerful corporate interests. They see themselves as unstylish a…

Peter Thiel funding a lawsuit is far from the center of power and social control. In this, he's merely a petitioner, hoping the true center of power and social control (the courts and lawmakers) will act in his favor.

Again, that's depressingly naive. If journalists call out Billionaire X for some bad behavior... Just buy the paper and fire those people. Or fund an endless stream of lawsuits to silence them.

That's the bigger picture here: Theil is trying to put a news outlet he doesn't like out of business. Even if he's totally justified the next 10 cases may not be but you can bet people will get the picture: don't piss off the SV billionaire club.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#276

Post by bduerst » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #206

bduerst wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subject of the case is a red herring. Typically in these situations, a settlement is reached or insurance covers the damages. That didn't happen. Thiel had an axe to grind against Gawker, invested $10m in the litigation, and pushed the case past settlement offers - even removing a claim that allowed insurance to cover damages. It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typicall…

Yes, Thiel was out for blood, but so what? There's nothing inherently wrong or illegal about feeling vengeful. It's a natural human emotion experienced and indulged by pretty much everyone at some point in time. It's not like we can eradicate it or make it illegal, so complaining about Thiel's goals or feelings seems like a waste of time to me. The issue, as usual, should be with the system itself. Is what happened h…

What you're outlining is what people are worried about here - that uninvolved third parties with means can influence civil court cases they are biased against.

You could argue that this has always been the case, where the U.S. justice system has always been biased in favor of those with the wealth or the means, but does that really justify not pushing back against it?

Keep in mind that I'm not defending Gawker or sex tapes. If it comes down to deciding between a world where the sex tape with my best friend's wife can be published, or a world where billionaires can use their wealth in court to take out press organizations, I'm leaning more towards the latter.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#277

Post by vixen99 » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

How about one who really is dangerous - George Soros.

“I admit that I have always harbored an exaggerated view of my self-importance—to put it bluntly, I fancied myself as some kind of god” or “I carried some rather potent messianic fantasies with me from childhood, which I felt I had to control, otherwise I might end up in the loony bin.”

http://humanevents.com/2011/04/02/top-10-reasons-george-soro...

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#278

Post by ada1981 » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

abandonliberty wrote: post #267

grellas wrote: post #219

Extremely wealthy people are just like any other group of people in that they come in all shapes and sizes. Here, one very wealthy individual used his money to fund someone else's lawsuit. He did so secretly. He did so against an organization that had harmed him and against which he presumably wanted payback but that also had done a gratuitously damaging and sleazy act as part of a pattern of sleazy acts upon which i…

It seems like we're entirely way off base here thanks to a piece that seems like a well written piece of propaganda by a media consultant. The NYT version has many more facts and significantly less unsubstantiated extrapolation. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/26/business/dealbook/peter-th... One better topic is: In our society you need a wealthy patron to help protect you if someone posts defamation or something ille…

>> What happens to society when laws can only be enforced by the wealthy? Years ago I was assaulted by former pro football player Ron Dayne in a bar in Madison, WI. He was pissed at the bouncer for making him wait in line like everyone else and took his anger out on me who happened to be in the front of the line by jabbing my eye three times, tearing my eyeball and covering me in blood.

There were about a dozen witnesses, including the bouncer, and when the police came and arrested him there was no real question about what happened.

It cost me a bunch in hospital bills and I had to wear an eye patch for a while.

After months of not hearing what was going on, I finally got the DA on the phone who told me that it would be hard for him to prove "intent" in prosecuting him... Seemed sketchy, if I shoot you with a gun, but don't "intend" to harm you is that ok? How about 3 rapid judo eye jabs tearing my eye? Or maybe it was that no one wanted to prosecute the hometown football star.

I tried unsuccessfully to find a law firm to represent me in a civil case and what I learned was that Mr. Dayne had every major law firm in town on retainer so that it was a conflict of interest for them to take the case.

I probably could have continued my search, but I was exhausted with what felt like an uphill battle in a big sports / football town.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#279

Post by further_tech » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:14 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #257

further_tech wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) First Amendment. Have you ever heard about celebrity gossips and VH1? 2) If it was offensive to Thiel, he clearly has an ego problem. Regardless, the article did not ATTACK him or MOCKED his sexuality. Any normal gay person would find other means to deal with this.

1) I would LOVE to hear how you believe the 1st answers the questions I posed. 2) So, when someone is outed, if they're offended, they have an ego problem? What planet are you from?

Honestly, you are either not intelligent or actively trying to distort my answers.

1) The 1st simply gives you freedom of speech. It doesn't matter if it is a gossip about someone.

2) I clearly was referring to the article exposing Thiel as gay ( his motivation for this). Because it clearly did not openly humiliated him, his overstated battle clearly shows an inflated ego.

Honestly, your answer and all the others sadly shows how rationality is just an "extra factor" when a "tech guru" is criticized. I expected more from this community.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#280

Post by babesh » Thu, Jun 02, 2016, 6:17 PM UTC

grellas wrote: post #219

Extremely wealthy people are just like any other group of people in that they come in all shapes and sizes. Here, one very wealthy individual used his money to fund someone else's lawsuit. He did so secretly. He did so against an organization that had harmed him and against which he presumably wanted payback but that also had done a gratuitously damaging and sleazy act as part of a pattern of sleazy acts upon which i…

You are just as presumptuous as the author. Perhaps there are traits more peculiar amongst these people that you presume is not the case. Perhaps the position itself allows these traits fuller expression. We don't know.