Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

psychologytoday.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 281 posts

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#271

Post by studentrob »

cairo_x wrote: post #270
studentrob wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at his frikken tree of knowledge model I know you're venting but you're a little off topic and hard to follow. It sounds like you have a bone to pick with this author. This sub-thread began with "warmfuzzykitten" lamenting the HN comments and now you're discussing other work by the author. Venting is totally fine and useful. There are some other techniques for releasing frustration that are more effective. Med…

I know you're acting out your therapist fantasy, but you're being a little passive aggressive. Meditation has been debunked. CBT has been debunked, Mindfulness has been debunked. Not only that, but meditation has been shown to be counterproductive and even dangerous. CBT is no better. It has become an industry of exploitation and snake oil. Recently two meta studies came out debunking the original CBT studies. Surpri…

> This is basic stuff. I can see you're feeding off my distress, so this is the last I'll say on the matter. Some people really are sick.

> cue passive aggressive "I know you're"... "totally fine, and useful" creeping Jesus response

Here are the facts. You choose to only believe certain research, and you won't take the effort to spend 30 minutes sincerely trying something which is not dangerous or risky for you.

I never said neuroscience was unfounded. My point is, neuroscientists are not the only scientists capable of doing research and running through the scientific method. We should be praising whatever work follows that technique, not just neuroscience because it appears to be cutting edge. The scientific method has guided and helped judge aspects of all sciences for hundreds of years.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#272

Post by wonderlust »

tim333 wrote: post #194
wonderlust wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I read this, its not a hypothesis, nor is it a theory. Its just a long value statement about how to think about what's going on. You can accept or ignore this, and it won't change the science at all.

As I read it "Depression and anxiety are, for the large majority of cases, emotional signals that one’s psychological health is not ideal and that one’s psychosocial/relational needs are not being met." looks like a theory and and experimentally testable and falsifiable one at that. Take a bunch of depressed people, try to fix their relationship needs along the lines mentioned in the article, survey the people who no…

Depression and anxiety are by definition not ideal physcological health.

And almost no ones social needs are ever truly completely met. we also know already that social support helps anxiety and depression regardless of whether it is a root cause. So your test wouldn't falsify if it returned a negative value, nor support with a positive correlation.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#273

Post by [deleted] »

wonderlust wrote: post #81
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are suicidal ideation/attempts and 'successful' suicides explained by this hypothesis?

As I read this, its not a hypothesis, nor is it a theory. Its just a long value statement about how to think about what's going on. You can accept or ignore this, and it won't change the science at all.

[deleted]

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#274

Post by studentrob »

venomsnake wrote: post #158
pc2g4d wrote: post #19

Amen to this article. As one who myself once believed my depression "came out of nowhere" (but which, in retrospect, was an obvious symptom of my emotionally destructive family and school environment) and who tried for many years to smother those feelings with antidepressants, I feel strongly that this article presents a wiser path. Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some p…

My favorite pet theory is that depression is the equivalent of autoimmune reaction for the brain. The same way we need some exposure to dirt to calibrate our immune system to not go berserk with some food allergies or lupus, probably we need something in our life to calibrate our brains' loopback feeds.

So, people who've led relatively normal, successful lives with good relationships and have depression might be experiencing it so deeply because they haven't had much exposure to sadness? Sounds like a reasonable theory to me.

That would also explain how people are able to get out of unexplainable depression after a period of time, and why people sometimes seem to seek out more sadness when they're already sad. They're looking for perspective.

Awareness is the goal of some forms of meditation. I'd like to see more studies on the effects of meditation on those who have various forms of depression.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#275

Post by jim-greer »

jjbiotech wrote: post #235
jim-greer wrote: post #33

While there's truth to this, it's a generalization. Twin studies show that there's a moderate genetic factor in depression, and a strong one for manic depression http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/558030 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16390897

Maybe these individuals with genetic "risks" evolved to live in an environment different from our modern society. Everyone has a different optimal operating environment. These studies don't really conflict with anything the author said.

How would you describe the difference between a symptom and a disease?

To me this article is akin to saying that the various forms of heart disease are not actually diseases. Instead, they are symptoms of a poor diet and lack of exercise.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#276

Post by hollander »

Taek wrote: post #216
Dylan16807 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some purpose, and yet we treat them both like meaningless pain meant only to be banished using drugs. I believe both are signals that something in our environment is not working for us. They indicate emotional or physical needs unmet---needs for safety, autonomy, connection, etc. > Often the individual suffering is fundamentally unaware…

Depression is sometimes described a numbing experience. Everything loses color, loses that spark. Sometimes, everything hurts, nothing feels good. Making the same daily decisions is painful and slow, like walking through an ocean of glass. Depression gives you the power to make really big decisions. Everything hurts about the same. Going to work is about as painful as staying home, meaning it's easier to quit a horri…

I've seen one person really depressed, what I would call a major depression, not what most of us mean when we say we feel depressed. She was totally numb, like her brain was removed, all will gone. There was no reasoning, nothing going on. It was horrible to see, and very educational for me. It's good to see something like this, to understand it. I don't think she was ready to make any decision, but I may be wrong.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#277

Post by cairo_x »

studentrob wrote: post #271
cairo_x wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're acting out your therapist fantasy, but you're being a little passive aggressive. Meditation has been debunked. CBT has been debunked, Mindfulness has been debunked. Not only that, but meditation has been shown to be counterproductive and even dangerous. CBT is no better. It has become an industry of exploitation and snake oil. Recently two meta studies came out debunking the original CBT studies. Surpri…

> This is basic stuff. I can see you're feeding off my distress, so this is the last I'll say on the matter. Some people really are sick. > cue passive aggressive "I know you're"... "totally fine, and useful" creeping Jesus response Here are the facts. You choose to only believe certain research, and you won't take the effort to spend 30 minutes sincerely trying something which is not dangerous or risky for you. I ne…

I try everything. No matter how stupid it seems, or what I think of it, because I'm desperate.

Lots of people out there feed of it and I have no choice but to try it because I'm a stuffed unit (presently I've been reduced to Ketamine. It is the only thing that has remotely come close to giving me temporary relief, and I must be reduced to criminality to use it -- because of some quacks who started selling shots (exploitation, again, sigh) genuine doctors can no longer use it off label, in my country). I would never recommend this to anyone because I'M NOT A FRIKKEN DOCTOR, YEAH? And neither are you, so stop with the irresponsible suggestions, because again, I will try anything.

Over the many years I've learned a few things about the people that feed off people like me, and people who feed off the dabblers and the grief stricken, the ashamed, all lumping us in together. All the above move on and the rest of us who can never recover get blamed for not having our lives in order. I've been very lucky with my life. If I didn't have certain privileges/luck I'd be dead like the rest of them, you don't have to contend with.

Neuroscience comes from a grounding in the physical sciences. Psychology abstracts from the top down. Psychology uses the scientific technique, but without the basic understanding required by all the other sciences. It is a culture of delusion and megalomania, a circle jerk of dunces, with the occasional valid observation, but never understanding. The hard sciences are taking those brave steps for one simple reason. They are grounded on small, proven facts. Psychology is grounded upon a quagmire of bullshit.

As psychology slowly loses its parasitic grip upon depression, I'm sure we'll see more of these death-knell articles, written by people for whom a career change is no longer practical. Soon, like Jung, all they'll have is their dreams and coloring books to remember them by. Sad relics of a backward era. Get out of it while you still can.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#278

Post by [deleted] »

studentrob wrote: post #271
cairo_x wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're acting out your therapist fantasy, but you're being a little passive aggressive. Meditation has been debunked. CBT has been debunked, Mindfulness has been debunked. Not only that, but meditation has been shown to be counterproductive and even dangerous. CBT is no better. It has become an industry of exploitation and snake oil. Recently two meta studies came out debunking the original CBT studies. Surpri…

> This is basic stuff. I can see you're feeding off my distress, so this is the last I'll say on the matter. Some people really are sick. > cue passive aggressive "I know you're"... "totally fine, and useful" creeping Jesus response Here are the facts. You choose to only believe certain research, and you won't take the effort to spend 30 minutes sincerely trying something which is not dangerous or risky for you. I ne…

[deleted]

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#279

Post by studentrob »

cairo_x wrote: post #277
studentrob wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is basic stuff. I can see you're feeding off my distress, so this is the last I'll say on the matter. Some people really are sick. > cue passive aggressive "I know you're"... "totally fine, and useful" creeping Jesus response Here are the facts. You choose to only believe certain research, and you won't take the effort to spend 30 minutes sincerely trying something which is not dangerous or risky for you. I ne…

I try everything. No matter how stupid it seems, or what I think of it, because I'm desperate. Lots of people out there feed of it and I have no choice but to try it because I'm a stuffed unit (presently I've been reduced to Ketamine. It is the only thing that has remotely come close to giving me temporary relief, and I must be reduced to criminality to use it -- because of some quacks who started selling shots (expl…

> Get out of it while you still can.

I'm not a psychologist, I'm a programmer. You can see it in my profile. I'm not making any prescriptions that require an MD. You're not paying me and I'm not claiming to dispense professional advice. I'm just sharing part of what worked for me. You're not required to read this or try meditation but it would only take you 30 minutes to try to sit in a quiet space and think about nothing, focusing on breathing. I do it every day now and it works great along with the understanding that we are all equally valuable. Nobody is more important than anyone else. What I write isn't more important than what you write. You're just as valuable as anyone else.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#280

Post by cairo_x »

studentrob wrote: post #279
cairo_x wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try everything. No matter how stupid it seems, or what I think of it, because I'm desperate. Lots of people out there feed of it and I have no choice but to try it because I'm a stuffed unit (presently I've been reduced to Ketamine. It is the only thing that has remotely come close to giving me temporary relief, and I must be reduced to criminality to use it -- because of some quacks who started selling shots (expl…

> Get out of it while you still can. I'm not a psychologist, I'm a programmer. You can see it in my profile. I'm not making any prescriptions that require an MD. You're not paying me and I'm not claiming to dispense professional advice. I'm just sharing part of what worked for me. You're not required to read this or try meditation but it would only take you 30 minutes to try to sit in a quiet space and think about no…

Reiteration:

Meditation can be catastrophic for people with depression.

There is a reason any meditation retreat will reject you if you answer 'yes' to currently going through depression.

Empty your mind, empty your feelings? Ummm.... Well, a depressed person has most of their feelings wiped to begin with, except for a heavy, sick, sinking, feeling.

A depressed person cannot think. You catch yourself just standing and sitting, hunched in one place and the whole day has passed.

Meditation is redundant for a depressed person. On top of that, there's so much stress hormones in the system just crossing the legs, and focusing on your breathing get become a source of distress.

People really have no idea what they're dealing with in depression because everyone assumes they've been through it, because that's what psychologists have always assumed. Then a real depressed person comes their way and they have to come up with a different name for it. Add a chronic, or a clinical, or some such bullshit -- it's the difference between alternative medicine and medicine. One is real, the other fake. One requires an MD, the other does not.

I have been going back to meditation my entire life to see if it will help, and it never does. It's good if you're feeling stable to begin with, but can really loop you out if you're depressed.

You don't get how serious it is. SUICIDE is a constant demon. You get that? Kill yourself kill yourself, evolution's kill switch, for the good of mankind, constantly going through your head is not some to be dismissed. If you say, meh, I can tell a depressed person what I want about what they should try and what might work, you are playing with nuclear fire.

Post reply on HN