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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

nytimes.com

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Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#271

Post by jsz0 »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #130
izacus wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a temporarily sales ban? Not a fine, just telling them "No new VW are going to be accepted into traffic for the next 12 months." Cruel, but I bet it's effective.

That's not a good idea. If you ban a large auto maker, you might create a shortage of vehicles, driving prices up for consumers. Also, the affected auto maker would surely try to mitigate the damage by cutting costs, closing down factories, firing workers. Dealerships would have to close as well. In other words, you would cause a lot of collateral damage instead of taking it directly from shareholders via a large fin…

> That's not a good idea.

Agreed. If auto makers face the risk of significant fines and/or penalties they will have to spend more on compliance. The worst thing for innovation is to create an environment where engineers are effectively being managed by lawyers and accountants.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#272

Post by marincounty »

Evolved wrote: post #128
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #20

I don't understand how California detected this. The one time I had to take my 2010 Jetta turbo diesel for a smog check, the inspection was ENTIRELY visual. The inspector did not insert a probe into the tailpipe. He did plug the test rig into the OBD-II port under the steering column and turn the key to the accessory position (presumably to electronically capture the VIN), but that's it. I even asked him at the end i…

California has a new emissions check system for vehicles 2000 and newer. No tail pipe probe or dyno regardless of the vehicle. Just visual inspection and plug in the OBDII reader. The OBDII reader checks the sensors for proper functioning and checks the ECU to make sure it hasn't been tampered with. Smog tech only really has to do the visual chek. Diesel trucks also get a snap test (step on the accelerator quickly an…

Yea, they do get the tailpipe emmissions test. Most shops use just one reference book for the visual inspections.

The shop owner usually, almost always, buys the $100.00 Motor Emissions manual.

The cheap shop owner should buy OnDemand5(Mitchell Manual Smog Emission) subscription/publication. They don't because they are cheap, and CARB only requires one reference manual for customers, and technicians.

The problem is Motor Publications is filled with errors that send thousands of customers home with failed Smog Checks.

I have found so many errors in Motor publications, it's comical. I have numerous emails, where I am literally arguing with, I believe, a secretary, over errors in their manuals. I have one email when the person I'm communicating with doesn't know the difference between Naturally Aspirated(Carburated) v.s. Fuel Injection. It's beyond frustrating, and I hope they get sued!

If you live in California, and your car doesn't pass the visual smog check, it's probally not you--it's errors in Motor Publications?

I have found errors on older Toyotas, and Volvos. Just the two autos I happen to own? What are the odds of that? They failed my vechicles, until I went to a shop that had Mitchell manuals, and I presented the Techs with a Printout of the Correct Emmission information.

(Motor Emission manuals--If you are listening; please clean up your books? It's beyond frustrating to fail a smog test because of your sloppy research! I will show the world my frustrating emails--if necessary?)

(CARB--if you are listening, require every shop to have access to two (2) separate Emmission manuals from different entities?)

And no--1988 Toyota trucks, 2wd, naturally aspirated(Carburator) do Not require a MIL light.

I literally tore apart the dash looking for the missing light. There was no light. There was no plug for a light. I literally thought I was going crazy. I was so frustrated, I forget to set the emergency brake and the truck rolled out of the garage. I'm lucky I wasen't on a hill and no one got hurt. I did need to buy a $200 bumper though. I'm still thinking about taking the shop to small claims court, but don't think it's worth the effort?

So, if you live in California, and fail Smog--ask questions. Don't just bring it to another Smog testing station praying it will magically Pass.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#273

Post by larrywright »

nickbauman wrote: post #237
mikeash wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your vehicle can't be safe without annoying everyone within a quarter mile radius, it's too unsafe to be on the road.

Like your spirit (I don't like the loud pipes either) but this is a little unfair. Motorcycling should be part of a more sustainable future. Especially when you consider how many OECD commuters commute in cars alone.

I agree with the parent. I despise motorcycles for their noise. On a nice spring/summer/fall day, it can be quiet and peaceful where I live (small community of 120k). More often than not, though, that quiet is ruined by a loud annoying motorcycle.

I'll be happy when motorcycles are electric, and therefore silent. If your vehicle can't carry you safely without being unnecessarily noisy, then it just shouldn't be on the road.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#274

Post by e28eta »

United857 wrote: post #29

The tech industry has been guilty of this in the past as well. Example: Nvidia and AMD drivers detected if you were running certain benchmarks or games, and would cheat by downgrading various rendering settings that had minimal effect visually. Often this was a simple check to get the process's executable name; simply renaming the .exe would get you significantly different perf results.

Mobile device manufacturers were doing it 2 years ago: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7384/state-of-cheating-in-andr...

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#275

Post by chmaynard »

denzil_correa wrote: post #30

Does HN not detect duplicates? I submitted the same article 3 minutes before OP. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239985 There's also another submission 15 minutes after OP's submission too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10240106

As I understand it, the new policy at HN is to allow duplicate posts to make sure enough readers see the article. I used to check for duplicates before posting, but now I don't bother.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#277

Post by grecy »

lutorm wrote: post #116
grecy wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the factory all vehicles run rich - it helps immensely with longevity as the extra fuel cools and lubricates the engine.

Vehicles run rich when cold and at full throttle . No engine would pass emissions checks if they didn't run stoichiometric mixture during idle and low-throttle operation.

> stoichiometric mixture during idle and low-throttle operation.

I don't believe I've ever seen a factory tuned vehicle run less than 16:1, most are 17 or 18 : 1

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#278

Post by Evolved »

developer1 wrote: post #257
Evolved wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because they used various tools to attempt to meet EPA standards doesn't mean any or all of those tools are illegal. What you're describing sounds like either a smog pump and/or a charcoal canister. Both are legal and widely used means of controlling emissions. The emissions guidelines, in your case, likely weren't being "gamed" so much as the manufacturers were just coming up with innovative and cheap ways of r…

Huh? They disable "emissions mode" during all driving either because a) it was bad for sales - perhaps one is unable to reach race car speeds in There is no apology to be made for them. Manufacturers are required to build sustainable systems, it's not optional. Unless the initial facts turn out to be wrong, this is clearly inexcusable.

I see what part of what I said made you confused. The "unsustainable" part of what I meant was that it caused some sort of undesired effect be it affecting performance or causing accelerated wear on components that could be costly to replace under warranty or some other condition.

Either way, I agree, VW did this intentionally and there is no question as to their motives behind it. I'm sure they'll be severely punished for it.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#279

Post by cmurf »

336f5 wrote: post #243
_yosefk wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can do it, chances are an attacker can, too. I prefer hardware that won't load unsigned software in such places.

Then use reproducible builds. You inspect the source code, and if it does what it's supposed to, compile it reproducibly, and compare the binary with the official one which has a signature. If they match, then everything is kosher.

Difficult unless the compile tools are free and open source, and the manufacturer documents the exact version of what compiler they're using, and what feature flags are enabled, etc. Otherwise the exact same source code can produce many different binaries, each of which hash differently.

I don't know the solution, but the black box approach we have right now I do not like. As a pilot this is a bit weird for me to say because those systems are also completely proprietary as well, full on black box - and not the d/v recording type. And I'm even wondering if that's overdue for a change as well.

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