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Fired? Speak No Evil

nytimes.com

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Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#261

Post by logfromblammo »

wpietri wrote: post #233
logfromblammo wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While working in at-will states, the severance agreement may in fact be the first document you sign that is actually legally binding upon the company in any way. Most offers I see are clear that the letter is not a contract, and no contract can even exist without direct and explicit intervention by the CEO. And that seems to be a left-handed way of saying that if you do try to get an actual contract, you will not be…

> It isn't unprofessional to abruptly walk out on the job if giving notice was never in the requirements. I disagree. One of the things that distinguishes professional behavior for me is having professional standards. That is, no matter what your clients or employers do, there are certain ways you plan to behave. For me that would definitely include a good handover. Of course, my professional standards also include r…

When an employer treats the employee unprofessionally, is that not an indication that professional behavior is not expected? If you have an expectation that your employer will provide notice and severance before termination, as might be specified in an employee handbook and verified by departing colleages, then giving notice before resignation would be appropriate. If, on the other hand, your company has in the past terminated people without cause, notice, or severance, and the handbook states in no uncertain terms, "You LOSE. Good DAY, sir," then I think any gestures for your personal honor will be lost.

We have no union or professional association to protect our interests in my labor category. We have only the willingness to be faithful and courteous to those who treat us well, and to be stubborn and vindictive to those who would abuse our good faith. Bite the hand that beats you.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#263

Post by damm »

It is unfortunate that companies must resort to Termination Agreements and wave money in front of your face to buy 'brand loyalty'. (I Call it that)

Additionally it is downright shameful that companies have forgotten to communicate better; some empathy and you'll find letting go of employee's does not have to be as negative. Worst part is companies expect the negativity when letting go employee's; they expect them to blow up.

I think the worst part is how I've seen companies set up the firings at times to add extra 'pain' to the employee's departure. Personally I spent almost 2 years at a company who was Acquired by Twitter to only be let go less than 45 days after the merger (right before Christmas). They let a peer go right after he got back from his Honeymoon! I have seen worse but this is just the tip of the iceberg!

Nothing better than Congratulations on getting married; pack your desk and GTFO.

Lastly: I did not sign a non-disclosure agreement personally about my last $client and I can speak freely about how much vitriol was spewed there on a daily basis.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#264

Post by DanBC »

crusso wrote: post #106
danielweber wrote: post #35

And I was soon informed that the president wished to assure me that there is nothing unusual about such clauses Whoop whoop whoop! This sets off giant alarm bells in my head. It might be totally normal. That doesn't mean you should sign it. It's also an older-than-dirt salesman tactic to say that something you just made up is "totally common." Of course, the company can attach whatever clauses it wants to a separatio…

I'll tell other engineers that two weeks' salary is a piddly amount for the company for you to surrender such rights So it isn't worth just moving on with your career for, say, $3k (assuming a moderate $80k/yr salary)? Seems like Internet bravado to me. I click okay on all sorts of terms of use agreements for my PS3 just to play some games.

I'm not aware of anyone going to court over licence agreements on games.

I am aware of very many court cases involving contracts of employment. Some of these cases are famous and reported in national newspapers, but many of them are everyday cases.

"Just sign it" is popular but terrible advice for some contracts.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#266

Post by d0ugie »

ggchappell wrote: post #239
ibrad wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happens when I sign and still rant about the company. Say on my blog. The company is already struggling financially it will cost them to fight back.

> So what happens when I sign and still rant about the company. Then you've broken your word.

.. and no shot of a healthy Safe Harbor gift a few months down. I got, on top of three months' severance a surprise $2K Safe Harbor gift, only having worked for the company for just over a year. And they were effective references, including the man who sacked me.

Leaving gracefully (and briskly without making a scene) can indeed be helpful, though perhaps not in the Times author's circumstances.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#267

Post by mlvljr »

ggchappell wrote: post #239
ibrad wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happens when I sign and still rant about the company. Say on my blog. The company is already struggling financially it will cost them to fight back.

> So what happens when I sign and still rant about the company. Then you've broken your word.

...and their world

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#268

Post by nathanb »

michaelochurch wrote: post #234
nathanb wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What offends me personally is the offering of money in exchange for signing the agreement. If I had a choice to sign the agreement or not, of my own free will and with no incentive, I may actually do so. Like you, I have no particular desire to speak ill of anyone, deservedly or not. Time spent disparaging a former employer is time which could have been better spent moving forward. But when you offer me an incentive…

But when you offer me an incentive for signing the contract? It makes me wonder why these rights I'm giving up are worth so much to the company. And feeling like I'm being bribed or pressured to do something is one of the best ways to manipulate me into not doing it, just because I'm so stubborn :) You're looking at it the wrong way. There are two ways the company can approach it. The first: we need to let this perso…

Sure. And I feel more goodwill when the company doesn't try to bribe me in to not talking bad about them. As it says in the article, any company that can't survive some disparagement is maybe a company too fragile to survive anyway.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#269

Post by BrownBuffalo »

nemesisj wrote: post #179
danielweber wrote: post #35

And I was soon informed that the president wished to assure me that there is nothing unusual about such clauses Whoop whoop whoop! This sets off giant alarm bells in my head. It might be totally normal. That doesn't mean you should sign it. It's also an older-than-dirt salesman tactic to say that something you just made up is "totally common." Of course, the company can attach whatever clauses it wants to a separatio…

I love it whenever anyone insists something "isn't a big deal" or they don't care about it that much. I will simply say that it is a big deal to me, so if it's not a big deal to them, they might as well do it my way. This works in almost all cases, or the other party has to backtrack and then at least we're negotiating on more transparent terms.

It's all dependent on the worker's rights in the state in which you work. NYS for example, almost always sides on the side of the employee. One thing to really think about is this - take the paperwork with you, and consult a local Labor office for your state. Kindly say, this is something I need to sleep on. I wouldn't dare sign anything under diress and I'm sure any lawyer worth his salt would say the same.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#270

Post by steveklabnik »

robterrell wrote: post #256
chimeracoder wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but while that may be true in general, California (where the author was employed[0]) is an at-will state, and most people reading HN (in fact, most people working at startups in general) are likely to be employed at-will. AFAIK, that means that they are not entitled to any severance unless their initial contract stipulated otherwise. [0] Actually, where the company was based we don't know which employment laws…

IIRC, the author lives in NYC, so I assume he was working remotely. If that was the case, which states laws apply? What if one of the states is an at-will state and the other isn't?

I've often seen contracts explicitly contain "Disputes will be handled in CA and I waive my choice of venue."
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