Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#261

Post by icebraining » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:41 PM UTC

astral303 wrote: post #153

angersock wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The computer is a device that, most of the time, just gets in the way of doing X. I responded to this in somewhat more detail down below, but I'll be really blunt here: Their own fucking unwillingness to seek out knowledge and have the patience to learn to solve problems is what gets in the way of getting things done. And every IT person with bad manners or an unwillingness to teach whatever they know and answer ques…

Just like their fucking unwillingness to learn how to fix a car that won't start is what gets in the way of them getting to work? Oh yeah, it was easy, the clutch pedal switch failed, duh, that's a $5 part and 10 minutes to replace. What do you mean, you missed a day of work for that, you fucking idiot?

I've fixed car problems in the past, and I don't even own a car. The difference is that my first instinct is to take out the manual and try to debug the issue using it, instead of throwing my hand up and immediately calling for help.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#262

Post by vmarsy » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:42 PM UTC

DocG wrote: post #177

I am under 25 and I can use a computer. Why? Because my parents bought me only my first computer and refused to upgrade after that. At one point my need for playing new games got the best of me and I started experimenting. First OS cleanup, first format, first memory upgrade, etc. I have never really learned how do deal with computers. Its just 10+ years of just fixing whatever is broken/not working, because there wa…

That's the point the author tires to make :

>Techno-Dad to the rescue.

That's the problem. You need to let your children experimenting. But you have to make sure it's safe for them : Don't let them install the playstation themselves if plugging the wrong wire could blow up your house (fortunately that's not the case)

Your parents let you discover by yourself, but you took the initiative because you wanted to play games, that was your goal. But people who don't care about playing new games would not have this tech-curiosity

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#263

Post by drcube » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:43 PM UTC

blakestein wrote: post #92

ender7 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To extend your car analogy, I wonder if the author knows how to fix his own car? I certainly don't. I know it involves pistons and carburetors and...tubes.

The difference I see here is I don't think there's some sort of prevailing idea that young people all know how to fix their cars, like there is that they know how to use a computer.

I don't know about you, but in the lower class area where I grew up, every teenage boy was expected to know about engines and pistons and cam-shafts and gaskets and whatnot.

Not that they did, mind you. It was enough to know a few makes and models so you could say "Gee look at that bad ass Thunderbird with a hemi!" when something cool drove by. That, and everyone had to pick a side in the Ford/Chevy debate, with a few parroted opinions to back up your choice. Actual mechanical ability was something most people just pretended to have.

To be honest, it's not that different than with computers these days.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#264

Post by saltyknuckles » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:44 PM UTC

8ig8 wrote: post #55

saltyknuckles wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cheaper and fun. Just unscrew the bolt on the oil pan underneath the car. Drain. Change screw on filter. Close bolt. Add new oil (usually 4 quarts for a 4 cylinder). Don't dump oil on the road or grass but I'm pretty sure I didn't have to mention that.

It's not that much fun and, if you value your time, it's not cheaper. Factor in the time to buy the oil and the new filter. The time to clean up the funnel and pan. The time to properly dispose of the waste oil. Consider the busted knuckles trying to open the drain. Consider the stripped drain plug. My neighborhood shop charges about $30. They use some kind of suction device that I think does a better job of getting…

I pay 90$ for 5 quarts of synthetic oil. Everyone is different.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#265

Post by icebraining » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:45 PM UTC

bennyg wrote: post #192

BWStearns wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The first rule of any educator is to never, under any circumstances, make someone feel inept. And it was so easily avoidable here. In none of these instances did anyone attempt to seek out knowledge. They were looking for a solution. If they had said "how do I [get on the network|reinstall the OS|rip this file off YouTube]?" then it would be a lot easier for me to dismiss him as a curmudgeonly holier-than-thou IT…

> In none of these instances did anyone attempt to seek out knowledge. They were looking for a solution. If they had said "how do I [get on the network|reinstall the OS|rip this file off YouTube]?" then it would be a lot easier for me to dismiss him as a curmudgeonly holier-than-thou IT guy. Still inexcusable, especially as an educator. Here's what I would of done: "Oh you can't connect to the internet? Watch this. S…

I envy you. I know exactly one "non-geek" person who would really listen to that kind of explanation. Everyone else I've helped was happy that I fixed the issue, but couldn't care less about why it broke or how to fix it.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#266

Post by saltyknuckles » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:46 PM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #57

saltyknuckles wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cheaper and fun. Just unscrew the bolt on the oil pan underneath the car. Drain. Change screw on filter. Close bolt. Add new oil (usually 4 quarts for a 4 cylinder). Don't dump oil on the road or grass but I'm pretty sure I didn't have to mention that.

Just unscrew the bolt on the oil pan underneath the car Getting to that point on many cars (I'm looking at you VW/Audi) can involve many more steps - on my last car, before you can even get to the oil pan, you have to remove the belly pan which involves three different types of fasteners, 6 of which are hard to reach unless you have a 90-degree screw driver (which I do). Getting to the oil filter requires removing th…

I have a VW its a pain in the ass to get to things. I was aiming that comment towards Japanese and American car owners lol

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#267

Post by drbawb » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:46 PM UTC

thedufer wrote: post #202

ender7 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To extend your car analogy, I wonder if the author knows how to fix his own car? I certainly don't. I know it involves pistons and carburetors and...tubes.

This analogy is pretty spot on. I don't know how to get rid of viruses, etc. But when people ask me to, I know how to google the problem. My experience with cars is basically identical - I didn't know how to change the brakes on my car, but I knew how to look up instructions and follow them. So much of "computer literacy" these days is typing things into google and following instructions. The fact that that is beyond…

I would argue there's more to literacy than blindly following instructions.

In regards to computers, sure, it isn't difficult to follow some instructions. The worst that could happen? Maybe you mistype a flag and end up recursively deleting a directory. However at least most "damage" done on a computer rarely crosses into the physical realm -- anything lost or damaged can often be repaired or restored inside of a few minutes.

So, sure, much of "computer literacy" is simply following instructions that will _usually_ work -- but there's not much hanging in the balance if you mess up.

Working on cars though? I would urge strong caution against simply following instructions. Even a fairly "simple" procedure such as jumping your car's dead battery can end in _serious injury or death._ Many people don't realize that their $70 car battery, such an innocuous looking box, can provide in excess of several hundred amps when the current is demanded. Shorting a battery is a quick way to create such a demand. Such a short could result in burns, electrocution, explosions [discharging lead acid batteries give off hydrogen gas], and could even result in a bit of rather annoying spot-welding.

Working on certain suspension components can easily create enough force to maim or dismember innocent bystanders. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY56ib3I-ew) (Ditto goes for working on any system with significant amounts of sprung weight -- such as garage doors, another common DIY maintenance item...)

Working on your exhaust often requires knowledge of your vehicle's fueling and vapor recovery system. Lest you start welding while there are flammable vapors near the rear of the vehicle.

"Knowing that you don't know everything" is often a mark of a wise individual. A tutorial may omit some crucial bit of domain knowledge that is commonly taught in the field, but not common knowledge for the average individual.

I certainly agree that people should endeavor to broaden their knowledge and skills using the Internet; but Google is certainly not a substitute for an expert's knowledge, experience, and guidance. Without true literacy, in any field, you may quickly end up doing more harm than good.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#268

Post by BWStearns » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:48 PM UTC

Vivtek wrote: post #149

arkades wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another Russian expression: "You will never carry knowledge [as a burden] on your back." Can you tell I was raised by intellectuals? Heh.

This reminds me of Masha the Bear, in Misha i Masha (my own transliteration, can you tell?). That image of the old guy who lives out in the woods and can fix anything seems really Russian (also very American, actually). I want to be that guy when I grow up.

>> also very American, actually

Given recent (~100yr) history, one of the most ironic things I noticed when I was studying Russian was the odd characteristics that could be equally applied to either culture (another odd one is some kind of fetish for acronyms).

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#269

Post by GhotiFish » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:48 PM UTC

robbles wrote: post #178

GhotiFish wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how I keep myself from being angry at regular people just trying to use computers. I have a car, I just want to use my car. I don't really care all that much how it works (thought to be honest, combustion engines are pretty cool!). I'm vehicularaly inept. I can drive, but I can't diagnose and I can't troubleshoot (though I can change a wheel). In my position, It's my hope that the vehicular technicians opposi…

The difference here is that we're willing to pay those vehicular technicians a realistic amount of money for their expertise, and nobody expects a mechanic to fix your car for for free, even if it'll "only take a second". I also have a healthy respect for their skills, and if my car breaks down, I'd be embarrassed about my ignorance and inability to fix or diagnose the problem (and I suspect most people would too).

Sorry your interactions have being so rough. I give tech support to my family for free, and people who are looking for a quick fix from me are often willing to pay for the privilege. I've heard stories like this quiet a bit though, but I don't think it is a universal attitude.

and I will grant you, the situations are not entirely symmetric.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#270

Post by gbhn » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:51 PM UTC

daraul wrote: post #209

simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

The car analogy falls apart though, when you consider the complexity of the tasks that he's complaining about. We would rightly laugh at anyone who complained that their car wouldn't 'turn on' when they jammed their key into the gap between the ignition and the steering column, or because the car was out of fuel. We'd laugh if they complained that they can't see at night because they didn't turn the lights on, and ne…

The counterpoint to this is that the folk understanding of computers is, when you consider it, often more compelling than the expert understanding.

The notion that all the computers somehow mysteriously talk to one another, or that if you can get WiFi you should be able to get to the whole internet, is not crazy. It is The Way Things Should Be! It's our job to rig up the equivalent of headlight switches for computers, so they work the way the folk expectation says. If your headlight switch required you to have a compatible dongle, which of course has exactly the same connector as 15 other types of dongle, and will only illuminate the left half of the road until you flip 50 other switches in the car, it would be crazy. That's what the computer world feels like a lot of the time.

It's definitely true that there is such a thing as digital literacy, that it is crucially important (although harder to get than it ought to be), and that many people mistakenly don't put in the effort to acquire it, for many reasons.