Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry? • Hacker News Board

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#261

Post by nijk » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:51 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #248

sageikosa wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every country has different rights for citizens and non-citizens. The rights are inherent in the nature of the situation (i.e., humans living in a social order based on equality of individuals under the law). The scope of the protection of those rights varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction (and vanishes entirely where jurisprudence is slave to political demagoguery). The fourth Amendment isn't the source of the…

Your assertion is essentially that all of these rights are natural rights. This is, as I said, an interesting claim. I'll point out the irony that the freedoms everyone considers so important didn't even make it in the original document, only the addendum :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

The Bill of Rights was explicitly presented as a statement to secure natural rights, and at least one founder (George Mason) explicitly boycotted the Constitution over the non-incorporation of the Bill of Rights into the main document.

One could even argue (though it would be a stretch) that the constitution articles are technical details, and the book of rights is separate because it intended to document the natural rights that should go without saying (but government not trusted to do so forever), separate from the procedural technicalities of the main text.

Now you are the one with "interesting" ideas.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#262

Post by mitchty » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 3:16 PM UTC

flyinRyan wrote: post #242

mitchty wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So those fleets of warships keeping shipping lanes open and free from pirate activity have done nothing for safety? I'm not saying america is perfect, but if we scale back our navy for example, there is going to have to be a lot of slack for other countries to pick up. And that means costs rising and more taxes for others. As well as the chance of increased conflict. The world isn't so cut and dry as you make it out…

There will be costs to all of us, but at some point the US is costing more than it's saving us. I think we must be close to that point if not already past it.

That is a statement that can't even be backed up with anything but conjecture.

How would you even start measuring the cost/benefit ratio? What monetary value do you assign to things like privacy? How do you know where you're moving things to doesn't have a "better hidden" equivalent to what the US is doing? Do you even know if it would be worth moving things? What is the opportunity cost to moving? What is the cost if you're wrong?

As much as I'd love to agree with the pathos response to these things, its better to see and wait than to kneejerk react to things.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#263

Post by wildmXranat » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 3:22 PM UTC

decasteve wrote: post #33

I'm Canadian. I'll be locking down my communications as best I can: email (GPG), instant messaging, chat, etc. I'd like to see my American neighbours do the same and hold their politicians feet the fire over this. I feel like I should boycott the US companies on the list, at least to some degree. I have made the switch to DuckDuckGo and Mozilla. A Blackberry, as opposed to Android, will be my next smartphone. As a de…

Same here.

Ill be looking to expedite my move off of gmail, yahoo, rackspace etc. It's a shame , but it has to be done.

I'm doing some active research into sending an effective letter my my MP as well as I would like to have it as much weight as possible.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#264

Post by kailuowang » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 3:40 PM UTC

Was the industry just destroyed? That shouldn't be too hard a question to answer. A good indication is the stock market - so far all major U.S. Internet companies' stocks show no signs of collapsing (prices increased since the leak). If you think the market is wrong, it's good opportunity for you to cash in.

It's also a good indication that the rulling class is not much concerned about this leak of PRISM at all.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#265

Post by ubernostrum » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 3:44 PM UTC

ansimionescu wrote: post #233

This might answer the question in the title: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines

This is one of the most formulaic, most predictable comments on HN. It adds nothing to the discussion, offers no insight into the topic, and exists only as a cheap way to score magical internet points.

Please do not post such comments again.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#266

Post by EthanHeilman » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

EthanHeilman wrote: post #21

eksith wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think most governments will go that far for casual usage, however I do see more restrictions on confidential, "official business" communication and storage through these (which, I hope is already the case). Think of how much disruption would be caused if Hotmail, for instance, was forbidden in addition to Gmail. Many of the early adopters of the web in these countries flocked to the most popular platforms (in…

There are levels, but the danger is that some person with sensitive information may communicate the information using an insecure service. For instance someone might remark that the military appears to be building a large underground structure near their farm, the US could then use this information to locate a newly build ICBM silo. The levels of action that a nation could take to protect itself are: 1. They could tr…

Additionally there is a very real possibility of backlash against US companies. It makes them uncool and political hot potatoes, who wants to use a phone made by some pet of the NSA.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#267

Post by MoOmer » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 4:22 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #101

jval wrote: post #40

This is a huge deal. I live in Australia and I have been running businesses on the cloud for the last 3 years or so. I have rarely heard the issue of the PATRIOT Act raised and in spite of there being laws banning the transfer of personal data outside Australia, most people are quite lax about the issue and take the view that the risks are too small to be counted. Those days are most certainly over. This stuff will a…

My latest startup is Efficito (a Limited Company, registered in the UK). The web site is http://www.efficito.com and our servers are all in Europe. We have built the service up with a very careful eye for security (why we are going hosted cloud first, and multi-tenant is still in the works). You have just given me what I think is a very good possibility regarding a marketing message, namely that we are not subject to…

Before anyone else gets this idea, I'd encourage you to look at your organizations' resident country laws before thinking & acting on this.

Companies based in the UK, for example, can not make the claim found above ( http://m.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-m...).

I'm not a lawyer, but you could lose all credibility if you act on that and get it wrong.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#268

Post by lkrubner » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 4:55 PM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #104

One of the rather interesting side issues in this whole debate has been how casually the rights of foreigners are tossed aside as secondary to those of american citizens. There is intense debate about whether US citizens rights are being violated, but almost nobody questions whether there's any moral or ethical issue with completely unrestrained spying on everybody else. While I understand that this is largely becaus…

The irony is that this issue (the universality of human rights) was the starting point of the dissent in the colonies in the 1760s that eventually lead to revolt against British rule in 1775. The people in the British colonies supported Parliament during the long revolutionary/counter-revolutionary period that lead up to the passage of the English Bill Of Rights in 1689, which everyone, in 1689, assumed applied to everyone under the rule of the crown. It was only the 1760s that Parliament adopted the attitude that the Bill Of Rights were privileges that only belonged to those who lived in Britain proper -- and the colonists were outraged that the rights they had assumed they had won 80 years earlier were now being denied to them. In 1774, when the government of Virginia asked Thomas Jefferson, to draw up a list of the grievances that the colonies had with Parliament, Jefferson referenced the long history of events that started under the Stuart Kings.

When the Founding Fathers eventually drew up a Bill Of Rights for the new nation, most of them wrote things that explicitly suggest that they felt the rights being granted were universal -- in particular, Benjamin Franklin was vehement on the subject, arguing that the Bill Of Rights extended to everyone, including the blacks who were being held in slavery (and when Congress met for the first time in 1789, Franklin pushed a bill to abolish all slavery).

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#269

Post by radd9er » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 5:10 PM UTC

kybernetyk wrote: post #181

zmmmmm wrote: post #104

One of the rather interesting side issues in this whole debate has been how casually the rights of foreigners are tossed aside as secondary to those of american citizens. There is intense debate about whether US citizens rights are being violated, but almost nobody questions whether there's any moral or ethical issue with completely unrestrained spying on everybody else. While I understand that this is largely becaus…

It was the same with the drone strike debate. The whole buzz was about the fact that the US president now could order a drone strike on US citizens. No discussion about non US citizens. It was just assumed that drone striking them was OK. Made me really feel weird as an European.

It made me feel weird as an American.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#270

Post by kevinskii » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #157

kevinskii wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, the US has held the 4th amendment does not apply to non-citizens who are not "part of the national community" Could you please provide a reference for this?

United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez - 494 U.S. 259 (1990) at 264-266 From the headnote: "The Fourth Amendment phrase "the people" seems to be a term of art used in select parts of the Constitution, and contrasts with the words "person" and "accused" used in Articles of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments regulating criminal procedures. This suggests that "the people" refers to a class of persons who are part of a national c…

Thanks for this. The OP suggested that non-citizens inside the US aren't afforded the same Constitutional protections as citizens. I believe this is incorrect.

From the Wikipedia article about the case you cited [1]: "...Fourth Amendment protections do not apply to searches and seizures by United States agents of property owned by a nonresident alien in a foreign country. [emphasis mine]"

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Verdugo-Urquid...