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Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

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Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for others, but as far as I am concerned, every person on earth has the exact same rights. I see no difference between an American and someone from another country. This informs my stance on all of US foreign policy. To me, spying on an innocent Iraqi or Chinese citizen is just as morally reprehensible as spying on an innocent American citizen. That being said, not all people feel as I do, and you are r…

At least in most countries, this is just not the way it works, legally. Every country has different rights for citizens and non-citizens. For example, the US has held the 4th amendment does not apply to non-citizens who are not "part of the national community" (IE if a bunch of canadians came down and fished every weekend, you could search them however without violating the 4th amendment. If they lived here illegally…

Let's leave aside morality and focus on self-interest. Considerations of self-interest make FISA 702 an impresssively self-destructive piece of legislation for the US to pass and to see upheld in its courts. And I'm not talking about relatively nebulous things like sapping the US' moral authority to call for Internet freedom and so on, though they should be real concerns for Americans too. This is very straightforward.

The reason that foreigners want to have their contracts adjudicated in US courts, one of the main reasons they buy US real estate or buy US Treasuries and trade the NYSE for much lower expected returns than they would demand elsewhere, is that they have faith in the rule of law in the US. Not perfect faith, but real faith. Not faith in the moderation and good intentions of the US (or CA, NY or MD) government (though they have some of that too) but faith that their US interests are protected in law by things like the Takings Clause of the US constitution - and usually by statute law as well - even while they go on living outside the US as non-citizens of the US. Nor is this something that matters only to foreigners: this trust from foreigners is one of the major pillars of the US' wealth and power. Look at places like the PRC or the UAE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIFC_Courts which are avidly trying to cultivate an image as a place where your real estate won't be swiped and your court case won't be nobbled to favour a crony.

Now, slowly but steadily, these non-resident aliens (like me) are cottoning on to what FISA 702 means for them. And what it seems to mean is that the rule of law doesn't apply to their Facebook or Google accounts the instant the Federal government chooses to get involved. As a non-lawyer reading FISA 702 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/hr6304/text the remarkable thing is that it's not establishing a process where the US government presents a vague counter-terrorism or national-security rationale to a secretive, questionably-independent court. It seems to be a process where the US government can help itself to anything it wants from any specified non-resident alien without even having to state any motivation at all, and in which the FISC court's only role is to confirm that the targets (probably!) aren't US citizens or residents. Does the government feel like doing a spot of industrial espionage on your company's email or file uploads? Sam's your uncle. There aren't any reasons even in principle why the FISC might refuse to issue the FISA order - and the government is spared even the embarrassment of having to state its intentions in court. Your internet company could appeal, but the whole process seems to work on the basis that as a non-resident alien you'll have no applicable Fourth Amendment rights, and 702 seems to clear aside any rights you might have under statutory law ("Notwithstanding any other provision of law"). And in any case what information about the Federal government's interest in you would Google or Facebook have to base an argument on? And once it has your data the US seems to be free to do nearly anything it wants with it - share it with your US competitors? Why not? - unless it tries to take the data to court. (See sec. 106 http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-92/pdf/STATUTE-92-Pg178... )

Now it's true that CIA could (and maybe does) attempt to hack the EADS servers in (I'm guessing) Toulouse in search of engineering goodies to share with Boeing, with just as much impunity under US law. But at least EADS has a chance to try and secure its systems from hacking attempts, instead of being instantly defeated the moment the US decides to file some paperwork, and it can get whatever benefit it can from the fact that the industrial espionage would be illegal under French law. So FISA 702 seems to completely reverse the normal position: in legal terms your person and your property are usually better protected from the US government inside the US than outside it. And of course the final touch is that you'll probably never get to hear about any of the intrusions, so even if you're the world's richest person or organisation with all the best lawyers they won't be doing you any good. It seems that the only legal restraint on the US' behaviour with the online data of non-resident aliens is that it can't request a wide-ranging search like "everyone in Pakistan who searched for 'X'", though even that may not be the case: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5845878 .

(Again IANAL. If someone qualified can correct important errors in my understanding of FISA I will be very grateful!)

So, imagine that the US Congress passed a law permitting the Federal government to expropriate any US property for almost any purpose from any non-resident alien at any time, for no particular reason, without compensation or even notice. Throw in some very effective judicial secrecy into the process established by law as well. Provide some unverifiable assurances that the Federal government will probably only choose to use the law against very bad people. Imagine that this law appeared to be holding up nicely against Congressional and legal challenge, at least for now. And please bear in mind that no non-resident alien would give a hot damn about which intriguing Constitutional arguments were being used to (rightly or wongly) deny them the protection of the Fifth Amendment. How would Wall Street, US real estate and the broad US economy be affected? It's not a perfect analogy at all, but it gives you some idea of what may be coming down the line for US internet companies.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#224
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better way to look at it is that rights are cultural, but that if we are serious about living in a decent and respectful world we should in our actions extend to others the rights we want to have ourselves. Does free speech extend to advocating going out and killing all African Americans at a white supremacist rally? In the US it does, but only because of our bad experiences during the Red Scares. In Canada…

we should in our actions extend to others the rights we want to have ourselves That belief is cultural too - it just so happens that almost every culture has independently arrived at it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule is a fascinating read.

What you quoted is actually the Silver Rule, which deals in negatives. It's also much easier to consistently apply without people hating your guts for being a condescending, paternalistic imperialist.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for others, but as far as I am concerned, every person on earth has the exact same rights. I see no difference between an American and someone from another country. This informs my stance on all of US foreign policy. To me, spying on an innocent Iraqi or Chinese citizen is just as morally reprehensible as spying on an innocent American citizen. That being said, not all people feel as I do, and you are r…

At least in most countries, this is just not the way it works, legally. Every country has different rights for citizens and non-citizens. For example, the US has held the 4th amendment does not apply to non-citizens who are not "part of the national community" (IE if a bunch of canadians came down and fished every weekend, you could search them however without violating the 4th amendment. If they lived here illegally…

> Every country has different rights for citizens and non-citizens.

The rights are inherent in the nature of the situation (i.e., humans living in a social order based on equality of individuals under the law). The scope of the protection of those rights varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction (and vanishes entirely where jurisprudence is slave to political demagoguery).

The fourth Amendment isn't the source of the right, it guarantees that the right won't be abridged by government action. As the Constitution is defined by and for the people of the United States, that the protections "guaranteed" (in quotes because the guarantee has to be maintained by vigilance) don't extend to those who are not the people of the United States isn't logically surprising, but can remain somewhat disappointing (politically and ethically).

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#226
post #40

This is a huge deal. I live in Australia and I have been running businesses on the cloud for the last 3 years or so. I have rarely heard the issue of the PATRIOT Act raised and in spite of there being laws banning the transfer of personal data outside Australia, most people are quite lax about the issue and take the view that the risks are too small to be counted. Those days are most certainly over. This stuff will a…

My latest startup is Efficito (a Limited Company, registered in the UK). The web site is http://www.efficito.com and our servers are all in Europe. We have built the service up with a very careful eye for security (why we are going hosted cloud first, and multi-tenant is still in the works). You have just given me what I think is a very good possibility regarding a marketing message, namely that we are not subject to…

The UK is not exactly an ideal location to make a fuss about this from, given that the Regulation of Investigative Powers Act (2000) gives extensive rights to the government to demand covert surveillance, which includes requirements of confidentiality over interception warrants to the extent that they in some circumstances can not even be revealed in court.

On top of that Part III of RIPA makes it an offense to fail to disclose your encryption keys to the government in certain circumstances, and the court does not need to actually prove that you have the keys in order to sentence you for failure to produce them.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#227
post #104

One of the rather interesting side issues in this whole debate has been how casually the rights of foreigners are tossed aside as secondary to those of american citizens. There is intense debate about whether US citizens rights are being violated, but almost nobody questions whether there's any moral or ethical issue with completely unrestrained spying on everybody else. While I understand that this is largely becaus…

I can't speak for others, but as far as I am concerned, every person on earth has the exact same rights. I see no difference between an American and someone from another country. This informs my stance on all of US foreign policy. To me, spying on an innocent Iraqi or Chinese citizen is just as morally reprehensible as spying on an innocent American citizen. That being said, not all people feel as I do, and you are r…

To me, spying on an innocent Iraqi or Chinese citizen is just as morally reprehensible as spying on an innocent American citizen.

Prepare to be jumped on by "anti-imperialists".

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're outside of the US, then yes you are not subject to NSA orders. But your data will still be accessed by the NSA, as the NSA won't require an order to read what you've got.

The point is they cannot get a court to compel you to hand it over. Yes, they can take what they can get.

The cannot get a US court to compel you to hand it over.

How likely do you think it is that any of the UK agencies that have powers to request interception under RIPA will refuse a "please scratch your back, and we'll scratch your back later" request from the NSA if the NSA actually cares about your data enough to try to get someone to compel you to hand it over?

And RIPA does provide basis for compelling you to hand over keys or face prison.

Being in the UK may protect us against NSA just taking whatever they feel like whenever they feel like it for no reason at all, but I very much doubt it does much good for anyone that actually ends up in the NSA's crosshairs.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone know how these companies, et al., actually differentiate US Citizens from Non-US Citizens? I don't remember clicking the "I'm a US Citizen box" on any website.

This is likely the root of the issue, which is that they probably capture all communications, but when they have a foreign target, that is when they actually "look" at the stuff they captured, trying to find stuff "related" to that foreign target. The NSA at least was supposedly run as a very tight ship (I have no idea now, i have no friends who have worked there recently), so I'm sure they theoretically have really…

I do not think any decent human being has friends THERE.
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